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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Black and White

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Lionsdale

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Hey guy's gonna be shooting a Noir style thriller sort of a throwback to such films as the third man or more recently good night and good luck . Going to be renting out a red one camera and was wondering if you gentlemen could give me any tips or info you have on shooting black and white with the red one.

I understand that for the most part red one shoots in color and you convert it to black and white in post, but are there any tips, tricks or advice you could lend my way? would really appreciate it.
 
If you know 1000% the final product is going to be in B&W, shoot in B&W (by turning down the chroma on monitors--whatever it takes.) You don't get color contrast in black and white, so you're going to want to light it differently.

EDIT: Oh, unless you're doing a green screen shoot. Then shoot in color. Don't ask.
 
yeah, shoot it in color... gives you a lot more flexibility in post. that's where you want to control everything.
 
Definitely shoot in color.

Digital capture makes this a no-brainer. Back in the day, the idea was to shoot b&w with a color filter in front of the lens to adjust color tonal values in relation to one another.

By capturing in color, you retain all of your choices for color filtration in post, and you can still simulate what is possible in post in-camera by adjusting the color channel values there. Dial out the chroma on your monitor and adjust lighting to suit your taste, knowing that there will still be an opportunity to fine tune what you did on set or go another direction altogether. It's all just metadata. But, if you're not very experienced in b&w, you may want to have a good b&w preview on-set to take you where you want to go.
 
paulherrin said:
yeah, shoot it in color... gives you a lot more flexibility in post. that's where you want to control everything.
Click to expand...

well... the thing is, you're recording in color no matter what (again, thanks the magic of redcode raw, the metadata is always there).

De-saturating while shooting is great though because as Andy pointed out, you're definitely going to be lighting differently for b&w, and B) your clips are going to load up on your computer in B&W by default, meaning fast and easy b&w playback if you want it.


PS - We just finished shooting a b&w short (all shot in a beautiful gothic church) and let me tell you, MX sensor + the new RED Gammas = A++++!
 
I've shot with a final B&W recently for a concert piece, a few things I learned -

Set the look you want in RCX and load the look in camera - as Andy points out, you light differently for B&W, and differently for different B&W "stock" - of course, this is only if you are sure you really are outputting B&W. We were shooting for a TriX pushed to 800 look, so we experimented in the shop a bit with shots and RCX correction until we got close, saved that look to camera, then deal with further tweaks (color to luma mapping) and noise in final grading.

Paul illustrates another point unintentionally - not matter how you shoot, its STILL in color. You can't not shoot color - RAW is RAW - the chroma data is there. If you decide to kill the B&W look in post, go back to color and no LUT, and then change the curves, the color to luma mapping, etc, you can. And we did on some shots.

There are thousands of other on this forum with more experience than I, so I'd take my input with a grain of salt.
 
Jeff once tipped me off on trying to base post mainly on the RED channel.

At least, check the channels out individually, they look very different, and that gives you three alternative startingpoints for post...
 
Lionsdale said:
I understand that for the most part red one shoots in color and you convert it to black and white in post, but are there any tips, tricks or advice you could lend my way? would really appreciate it.
Click to expand...

Andy Jarosz said:
If you know 1000% the final product is going to be in B&W, shoot in B&W (by turning down the chroma on monitors--whatever it takes.) You don't get color contrast in black and white, so you're going to want to light it differently.
Click to expand...
This advice is on the money, but it doesn't go far enough.
paulherrin said:
yeah, shoot it in color... gives you a lot more flexibility in post. that's where you want to control everything.
Click to expand...
This point is off the mark. Red always shoots color, but post is decidedly not where you control everything. The camera shoots Raw, and that raw image always includes color information. But while you do have the advantage of controlling the conversion from color to B&W in post, you light on the shoot, and you will want to light differently for B&W. Especially for a Film Noir look.

Andy's advice to turn down the saturation on the monitors will let you better see what the light is doing. But I'd go farther than that. Color is not irrelevant, and B&W conversion doesn't mean just turning down the saturation.

The nature of the B&W conversion is affected by the luminance values of the different colors in the mix. Photographers (still & motion) used to use yellow or red filters to increase contrast in skies, for example, and green to change the contrast of faces. You can do similar things with curves and RGB sliders, but it's a good idea to have an idea where you're going with that when you are lighting the set. So I'd suggest that you shoot a test, create a B&W conversion look that you like, and upload that to the camera to shoot with. It'll make a real difference in your ability to light to create the look you want. The color channel mixing will also affect art direction. If you are holding back reds, for example, to make lips more pronounced, it will have an effect on the luminance of a red coat. It will be helpful if you're seeing that on the monitor.

A good way to experiment with this before you do a full-on test with your Red One is to use Lightroom's B&W mix or Photoshop's channel mixer and do some testing on stills. Note the settings you like and when you shoot your R1 test, do something similar in RedCine. Once you get to some setting s you like in RedCine, save the looks and upload them to the camera.
 
I would test test test. I'd work towards creating an in camera color response similar to panchromatic film. And I would test with filters Yellow, Orange, Light Red, and Red. All have great impact on flesh tones ( at least on panchromatic emulsions).
I would not shoot it color (view) since color will tend to dominate/influence your perceptions. Sure there is a lot you can achieve in post, but if you're going for noir, you want every bit of its psychology up front. Its tough enough without adding extraneous elements. Even on a simpler level, a large area of color might promise one thing and completely fall flat in B+W. I wouldn't shoot a black and white in color any more than I'd shoot color with a black and white monitor.
 
You can easily set up a look file that strips away all of the saturation. You would then be lighing everything and seeing only black, white and greyscale values.

This look file would only be metadata and you would only see the BLUE channel on your histogram to see how wide a range of image you are capturing.

As David stanted, you will always be rocrding in COlor, but lighitng and monitoring in B&W will DEFINITELY change the angles and how you create the film. If you shoot and monitor in Color and take away the color later, you might not feel you get the same result.

David
 
Never done a b&w shoot on red yet, but all my private photos in the last three years I've done in black and white. I've found that the shots that hold the most 'can't grasp what it is magic' were taken with a specific lens. Also always good in b&w are shiny surfaces that reflect loads of light. But this of course really depends on what you going for. But check out the lenses if you have several options. I really like vintage lenses for this stuff. Maybe it's just the idea of using older glass that helps in this too...
 
The biggest thing with shooting in the 'contemporary sense' of noir style is working out before hand how far do you want to go in the sense of contrasting B&W. Once that is worked out then set and costume design are as important as lighting. Getting a perfect sense of what colour and fabric contrast well and look good in B&W, as well how the location lends itself to hard lighting. Make the most of it. Once all those elements are in order it is a matter of exposing correctly to get the most out of both extremes. I don't think it needs to be more complicated than that. The extremities of the grade will define how far you want to go.

The only time I have ever shot black and white in camera is on film and there is a good reason for that. I see little benefit in filtering out channels in camera, In my mind it is counter-intuitive to the nature of the RED, but I could be wrong, I haven't tested. That is probably something you should do if you can. If you do. Let us know how you get on.
 
Make the Proxies What You Want

Make the Proxies What You Want

Whatever you do in camera for RED doesn't matter for the final product because you can change it all in RED Cine, however, what you change in camera does make the settings permanent for the proxies in the R3D folder. Now, the way we work as far as dailies are concerned is that we sync and view the proxies. So shoot black and white for the camera. It will help you out as well as your director so that way you can see what you are working with, because it is working with a grayscale and not a color scale. It also keeps the whole crew on the same page. But personally, I would change the in camera settings to black and white.

J. Michael Vargas
 
I didn't realize it wasn't possible to have three identical channels, but that's a good thing. I agree with the others in saying you should monitor it closely to what your final look will be. At the very least, control your physical monitor to be b&w. But it would probably be a better idea to take a look from RC-X and use that as a starting point on set and in post.

You will definitely light differently for b&w, and I wouldn't suggest that you don't light and expose the scene well in-camera. And don't forget to white balance as usual, even if you are viewing in b&w.

There are some things I would advise to do in post, things that would be baked in. Not data or anything, but practical things, like setting up lights to overexpose areas when it can be helped - which is very applicable in a chiaroscuro, film noir style. I'm not saying you can't, but why give up your level of control?

Anyhow, hope the shooting goes well, we expect a full report, and some shots!
 
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