Birger Canon Demo @NAB/REDuser party

[Warren Kommers]

Does it expand the focus range like a cine lens?

What about the bluetooth? I take it it's not ready?

 

[Erik Widding]

Took my 16-35 2.8II over there and it seemed to work perfectly, although zooming did not hold focus. I believe Erik said he will take care of that in programing the mount for each specific lens and refocusing during the zoom? Please correct me if I am wrong.

We just didn't take the time to collimate the camera. Good zoom lenses do hold focus when the back focus of the camera/mount is correct. Now that the demo is done, I will confess that we left the lab at 4am tuesday morning, stopped at home closed my eyes an hour, packed and left for the airport at 6:45am. Intended to collimate the camera at the hotel, just didn't get to it.

As for the performance of the lenses, there were exactly two lenses that came to the event that did not work with the newest software: a sigma that aqua brought; and the 100mm f/2. That second lens worked when we switched to last week's version of the software that updates the lens position 25 times per second instead of the new software's 50 times per second update rate.

Iris was enabled at 1/2 stop per step. We spent a total of five minutes testing the 1/4 stop per step mode, and weren't happy enough to demo it. I want to test this with more lenses before I comment on whether we will enable 1/4 or 1/2 stop steps. Probably not going to want to ride the iris unless you do some exposure normalization in post. Even without lens data, it should be possible. Iris moves could be timed to happen while the shutter is closed. They happen really fast.

Overall I am happy with how the demo went. The one on one interaction gave me more ideas.... but for now... (1) we will get the Canon Mount and the Knobs shipping in volume; then (2) we will do a public development of the remote control here on REDuser; and then (3) we will finish up the Nikon mount. So the 8 to 12 week estimates for Nikon are reasonable. We will not ship the Nikon mount until I am happy.

I will leave it open to the community to rate the lenses... for now I will offer the following guidance: USM motors are good, ring type USM motors are better; "L" series lenses are awesome mechanically/optically; the $310 50mm f/1.4 is usable, but has some breathing and some image shift with focus reversal - it will be good for some purposes; the 50mm f/1.2 breathes very little, and is mechanical and optically a fantastic lens.

We did not choose to demo IS last night. We have IS working, but have not integrated with the 50Hz update yet.

The knob was a prototype that wes setup to allow people to see just how responsive the lense are. And, for the 8001st time :sarcasm: the knob will have adjustable tension.

BTW, Bluetooth works, and is the path of least resistance for a software upgrade and procsessing collimation data.

 

[Chris Kenny]

Thanks for the update, Erik. I've got a couple of questions:

1) If Bluetooth is already enabled on the mount (sounds like it is), will you guys be publishing the specs so people can write software that runs on laptops or palmtops, and maybe get some wireless options working even before the remote ships?

2) Now that shipping is starting imminently, what should those of us who still haven't gotten any confirmation of our orders do?

 

[Joel Kaye]

We did not choose to demo IS last night. We have IS working, but have not integrated with the 50Hz update yet.

The knob was a prototype that wes setup to allow people to see just how responsive the lense are. And, for the 8001st time the knob will have adjustable tension.

I forgot all about IS. That could be really cool.

And it seems the EF-S lenses work from what I saw. Have you ever seen any cropping problems with a EF-S lens and 4K on RED Erik?

I'd like to put in a vote for leaving the cable a little longer so an AC could take it off the rods and handhold if they wanted to. Though, I guess the bluetooth remote will make that irrelevant when it comes out.

Overall - good demo. You really proved the technology to me!

 

[Elizabeth Lowrey]

Erik, a couple of those who attended the demo/party got the impression that you weren't particularly enthusiastic about the Nikon mount. I'm familiar with your previously expressed concerns re the lack of Nikon AFS primes. But I wonder if you have any cause at this point to think that, after a reasonable development period, your Nikon mount will in any way be inferior in performance to the Canon? Do you expect the smoothness of focus and iris control on top model AFS zooms to be at least as good as what you get on the best Canon zooms?

This is an important question to me because, right now, I only have one Nikon lens and a Nikon D40 DSLR. But I'm poised to drop $3,500 on more lenses as soon as my RED camera ships in June, so I'd like to know ASAP if I am okay sticking with Nikon -- with the intent of cross purposing the new lenses on my D40 and the RED -- or whether it's wiser to sell my existing Nikon gear off now and make a complete jump to Canon.

 

[Mark Phelan]

Erik,

Thanks for your comments about the Nikon mount. I am really looking forward to using it versus having to settle for the Red mount. Timeline is not a problem as long as it does materialize, so thanks again!

Mark Phelan

 

[Erik Widding]

Erik, a couple of those who attended the demo/party got the impression that you weren't particularly enthusiastic about the Nikon mount. I'm familiar with your previously expressed concerns re the lack of Nikon AFS primes. But I wonder if you have any cause at this point to think that, after a reasonable development period, your Nikon mount will in any way be inferior in performance to the Canon? Do you expect the smoothness of focus and iris control on top model AFS zooms to be at least as good as what you get on the best Canon zooms?

The iris should be smoother on the Nikon, because we make adjustment to the iris mechanically. The step size will be a function of the decisions we make, not the decisions made by the lens manufacturer 25 years ago (as is the case with Canon).

The performance of the focus will be a function of the design of the lenses. Because the mechanical linkage for focus in the AF lenses sucked so bad, Nikon has done some cool stuff with absolute encoders in the lenses to make up for this. Canon drives the lenses open loop.

At this point I have no reason to believe the Nikon will be worse for any of the AF-S lenses than the Canon mount is. I have the above two reasons that I think it might end up being at least as good, or better. Time will tell.

I want my customers to be happy, so if a mount choice turns out to have been a bad choice, we will exchange for the other mount (for any customer that ordered before the limitations of any given mount was known). Unfortunately there is nothing I can do about the lenses.

Ebay is the answer to the lens problem. You can get 90% of what you paid for a lens back through resale. This can help with switching lens platforms - or the need for a lens for a particular shot. It is often cheaper to buy and resell a lens, rather than renting it!

 

[Mark Phelan]

That is exciting for me because the three lenses I'm planning on using right off the bat are the 17-35mm AF-S, 28-70mm AF-S, and the 80-200mm AF-S. A question, will a TC 20EII work with the Nikon mount? I presume it should, but what do I know.

Mark Phelan

 

[Andrew Young]

Eric,

It was great to meet you and see your handiwork up close. Well done!

In all my playing with the unit, there was one thing I forgot to test or ask about. If you continue to turn the knob past the end of the lens' range it will keep spinning - there are no hard stops, right? So does that mean that you loose calibration on any marks you've made on the ring? Any way to avoid that?

And: Any chance of adding a small thumb wheel to make iris changes faster than what could turn out to be many button pushes?

Thanks again for creating this very innovative product!

 

[David Nardini]

while I'm waiting for the Birger Canon mount ...

while I'm waiting for the Birger Canon mount ...

That is exciting for me because the three lenses I'm planning on using right off the bat are the 17-35mm AF-S, 28-70mm AF-S, and the 80-200mm AF-S. A question, will a TC 20EII work with the Nikon mount? I presume it should, but what do I know.

Mark Phelan

While I'm waiting for the Birger Canon mount (99% of my own glass is Canon), I've been primarily using a Nikon 17-35/2.8 on the RED. I must say that I was not too impressed ... the image is clear ok, but just does not 'pop'. Mounted some primes and the images produced by the RED as soooooooooooooo much better (Sigma 14/3.5mm[not ideal I agree]; Nikkor 50/1.4[very nice]; Nikkor 135/2.8 [very nice]; Nikkor 180/2.8[wow]).

I must have a sub-standard 17-35/2.8 (the only Nikon glass I kept since switching to Canon ... MUST have it serviced by Nikon).
For those out there with JUST zoom lenses on their wish list ... beware ! compare and contrast with primes when you get your RED ... you may be surprised like I was.

The good news is that the Nikon manual glass CAN be used on the Canon Birger mount via an adapter ... so getting the odd good Nikon prime as a backup to Canon glass may not be such a bad idea.

Just sharing my current thought ... ;-)

PS : judging by the recent Erik posts, I wont be getting my Canon mount by next Tue, so I'll be off on my shoot next Wed with borrowed/rented Nikon glass ... and yes, primes :angry03:

 

[Carl Dieker]

These reports sound great. Congratulations! Before ordering I would like to know how durable your product really is. I am filming documentaries and the thought of adding more electronics and mechanics into the picture make me feel a bit nervous. If the electronics stop to work while out on the field you are pretty much stuck with a dumb Birger mount and without any alternatives. Now if the PS Technik would make a a special Birger mount for their universal lens mount I would feel much cooler about it.

 

[Erik Widding]

Before ordering I would like to know how durable your product really is.

We have been manufacturing these mounts for more than seven years. They have been employed in volume by various branches of the armed services in the US and abroad.

One of our larger volume applications is aerial imaging (airplanes and helicopters). With up to 12 lens controllers on a single flight vehicle - we are talking about imaging systems that cost in excess of US$0.5M, with operating costs in excess of $1K/hour.

What I am trying to say - people with a great deal at stake are okay with the risks.

The camera is electronic. The lens mounts are electronic too. If the thinking is that the kit should contain backup camera bodies and backup lenses - it should contain a backup lens mount as well. An extra lens mount costs less than a single fast prime - and takes up less space in your bag.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

We have been manufacturing these mounts for more than seven years. They have been employed in volume by various branches of the armed services in the US and abroad.

One of our larger volume applications is aerial imaging (airplanes and helicopters). With up to 12 lens controllers on a single flight vehicle - we are talking about imaging systems that cost in excess of US$0.5M, with operating costs in excess of $1K/hour.

What I am trying to say - people with a great deal at stake are okay with the risks.

The camera is electronic. The lens mounts are electronic too. If the thinking is that the kit should contain backup camera bodies and backup lenses - it should contain a backup lens mount as well. An extra lens mount costs less than a single fast prime - and takes up less space in your bag.

Amazing!

Erik we are all very proud to have you with us RED users here.

 

[Walter R]

Get two

Get two

Having seen the build quality, etc. of the mount at the Reduser event, I have no worries about it being able to withstand the rigors of doc and other field work. Having said that, I would suggest getting two of everything, at least that is what were doing. You can't take spares of everything in your kit, but I think this is one worth considering because it is physically small and relatively cheap.

If you do the type of things that cost a lot of money (crew and/or talent just standing around) or are hard to set up to reshoot (interviews or anything with travel), it seems like a risk that is worth removing by spending the extra cash on spares.

But again, I don't expect any problems with the Birger mount and am more concerned about my camera having an issue.

These reports sound great. Congratulations! Before ordering I would like to know how durable your product really is. I am filming documentaries and the thought of adding more electronics and mechanics into the picture make me feel a bit nervous. If the electronics stop to work while out on the field you are pretty much stuck with a dumb Birger mount and without any alternatives. Now if the PS Technik would make a a special Birger mount for their universal lens mount I would feel much cooler about it.

 

[Carl Dieker]

We have been manufacturing these mounts for more than seven years. They have been employed in volume by various branches of the armed services in the US and abroad.

One of our larger volume applications is aerial imaging (airplanes and helicopters).

--

An extra lens mount costs less than a single fast prime - and takes up less space in your bag.

Good answer. Thanks!

 

[Thor Wixom]

I have maintained a healthy amount of skepticism about the Birger mount (although I did put my order in in November).

That said, it's everything I hoped it would be... at least it seemed that way at the Reduser Party, and I can't imagine it working any differently in a real world environment than it did at the party.

Congratulations, Erik! My hat is off to you. I take back every post that was even the least bit doubtful.

I can't wait to get it, and use it!

The sweetness of owning a Red feels almost doubly so now.

-Thor