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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

BIRACY.COM (Crowdfunded Filmmaking)

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Andrew,

8% does equate into that amount and lets see.....

12 staff (and growing for scalability of SoKap) including legal, accounting, brand development, web development, marketing, media relations, and support staff.

Overhead for tradeshows, office space, equipment, servers, cloudspace, CDN space, outside legal on issues related to coops, etc etc etc.....

Do you have a problem with companies that make money for providing a service?

To answer your question on me owning a membership.....NO...I do not own one. The very first membership (to launch the site) was me registering my Mom.

Once again this word ponzi pops up. Do you even know what a ponzi scheme is? We have a capped membership, and members are prebuying a copy of the film. The use of proceeds is clearly outlined and if you wish to market the project to your friends...we pay you a commission...just like the studios do with their daisy chains within the pre-sales system.

I suggest that you look at the definition again before making these allegations that you can't defend.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

If you have actually worked in the film business for any length of time you might realize that this system benefits the filmmaker and his/her fans directly. It's a little different and we know this...but hey....go make your films your way. You don't have to join our project.

Thanks

David Geertz
Founder + CEO
The Biracy Project
www.biracy.com
 
david geertz said:
If you have actually worked in the film business for any length of time you might realize that this system benefits the filmmaker and his/her fans directly. It's a little different and we know this...but hey....go make your films your way. You don't have to join our project.

Thanks

David Geertz
Founder + CEO
The Biracy Project
www.biracy.com
Click to expand...

Hi David,

What's you're background in filmmaking? I searched google, imdb, etc with no luck to find out what experience you have.

If you've worked in filmmaking, especially narrative, you'd know better than anyone that a great film comes from a director's vision, and his/her collaboration with key crew, such as DP, production designer, screenwriter etc. If these people, but most importantly the director, have to listen to this "crowd" in telling them what to do, how is that ever going to be a good film? How does this benefit the filmmaker? "Too many chefs in the kitchen" comes to mind...

The most likely outcome of crowdfunded filmmaking is a movie that bombs in the box office. You get your 8% in fees and run.

The other, far less likely, outcome is a movie that makes money. Now you get 25% of the receipts (possibly in the millions), and the crowd gets 75% in fake money to buy socks with your logo on it that you buy for 10 cents from china. In other words, if the movie makes $10M, you're not giving $7.5M away, you're giving $7.5M away in products at retail value, while the cost to you is still wholesale. So of the $10M made you're probably keeping more like $9M, not $2.5M

Which part of this process would people enjoy? Making a crappy movie and losing your money, or making a great movie and losing your money while watching you get rich. It's a lose lose situation.

And BTW, if you have to put an explanation in your FAQ as to why this isn't a pyramid or MLM scheme, then as an entrepreneur deciding whether your business idea is good, that should be a big red flag...

And from a marketing standpoint, I still don't get the name Biracy. In what way is that appealing? It doesnt sound pleasant and it rhymes with Piracy, one of the most hated words in the filmmaking business.
 
Alex,

I have no idea why you are so angry and why it is that you can't read when you obviously have a good command of written English. Everyone one of your points about our site is wrong. Go read the site. As for me I am not a film "production" person but rather a distribution, and development person. I don't own a RED camera but guys on my crew do. I'm not a director...but a guy on my crew is, and he will allow the fans to "vote" on ideas that he puts forward. How is this watering down the process? It's an interactive film Alex...relax. Nobody's telling you that you can't be an auteur of snowboard films. In fact with the fake money as you so put it in our system, fans would be able to fund your next mumblecore epic! Hey...you don't need production money to make your movies though...so don't join our site!

You're a walking contradiction. You state you're an entrepreneur, yet you are opposed to the idea of new ideas, making money and providing a way to give back to your audience.

As for the 8% you keep ramming down our throats. Ever heard of overhead, salaries, and transaction processing fees Alex?

As for the 25% of revenue Alex. Where we come from we pay unions, guilds and above the line people part of this. It's called profit sharing. Do they have profit sharing where you come from? How much money should we make Alex?

as for the Biracy word Alex. As you so put it...it sounds like piracy - NO WAY MAN! Geez, I'm pulling the site down cuz gall dang it mister...i musta missed that one.

Did you read the first page of tour Alex? Of course you didn't.

I could go on if you like?

By the way Alex...where do you get funding from and how much do YOU give back to your..."fans"?

Dave
 
The way I see it, it doesn't really matter whether the skeptics think it's a Pyramid Scheme or not.

It doesn't really matter whether the participants think it's a Pyramid Scheme or not.

It doesn't really matter whether the people behind it secretly intend it to be a Pyramid Scheme or not.

It does matter if, as a participant or one of the people behind it, you live in a country where Pyramid Schemes are illegal, and the government's lawmakers decide that it is one.

Those countries include the United States, the United Kingdom, France, Brazil, Germany, Norway, Albania, Canada, Romania, Colombia, Malaysia, Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, Italy, Philippines, South Africa, Sri Lanka, Switzerland ,Thailand, the People's Republic of China, Mexico, Portugal and The Netherlands.
 
An awful lot of sarcastic venom from someone trying to sell something to potential customers who have legitimate questions/objections. A film is not interactive. It is built from the writers script and the directors vision. Have fun with that committee voting on whats on the craft service table.
 
Let me go on to say, that as I am a Canadian citizen, and Biracy is run by a Canadian company, I took a look into the law in Canada.

The Royal Canadian Mounted Police site has a link to the Reporting Economic Crimes Online site, which states:
"A pyramid scheme is illegal for the purposes of the Criminal Code when a person participating in the scheme becomes entitled to receive more money than they invested in the scheme by reason of recruiting others. The money is made through recruitment, while the product or service has no real value.
https://recol.ca/scams/advance_fee.aspx#pos3

Page 4 of Biracy's tour states:
"you can see how easy it is to start earning referral fees which will quickly outstrip your own membership fee."
http://www.biracy.com/tour/tour4/
 
Thanks for this comment Stephen. Also rest assured that we needed to jump through all the hoops that local and international securities regulators needed before we could begin. Part of that process is being approved by the US government who are very strict about structures that adopt affiliate marketing and word of mouth structures.

Added to this, both the bank (Bank of Montreal) and the payment processors we use also needed to feel comfortable with the structure in light of other schemes and "pyramids" that do nothing other than taking from Peter to pay Paul.


Thanks

David Geertz
Founder + CEO
The Biracy Project
www.biracy.com
 
I think I came off a bit harsh, so I apologize for that. Also, I'm not angry :)

Ultimately, I think this forum is just not your demographic, which is why there's been a strong reaction to the business concept. People here, including myself, decided on the film industry because of the love of making movies, not money. I would've gone to business school and become an investment banker if I wanted to make lots of money.

You're slogan is "Make movies. Make money. Build an audience." By this you infer that you're making money by making movies and building an audience to see those movies. This is deceptive. You're not making money by making movies. You're making rewards points, then using a textbook MLM model to encourage grassroots marketing to attract customers to your business (which happens to be making movies).

It's as if an airline says "get paid to fly with us," when in fact they're referring to miles. Then the airline says that for every person you refer to our airline to buy tickets, we'll pay you. You're getting paid to advertise the airline, not to fly on them.

And BTW, I'm a dp and don't really have any fans per se (does my girlfriend count as one?). I give back by working on low budget/passion projects for free/cheap.

Also, you didn't address where that 75% of the profits actually go. Since rewards points and extending people's memberships costs you very little, I hardly think that will fill up the 75% that goes back to the people.

Lastly, i wasn't stating I was an entrepreneur, I was alluding to your thought process when you hatched the idea.
 
This is so off topic for this web site, but I cant resist. Just had a quick scan of the biracy zone and tried my best to wade through the gobbledy gook and marketingspeak. Man, you web geek carpetbaggers just have to find a way to monetize everything don't you? I live in Vancouver, and know the local industry fairly well, I'm not sure where you guys are from but VFS seems to be your claim to fame in the "industry". This whole "i'm an expert on the indie biz" is a pile of poo and you now it. Theres a sucker born every minute. Best of luck with your "social experiment". (head shaking now)
 
Stephen Strangways said:
Let me go on to say, that as I am a Canadian citizen, and Biracy is run by a Canadian company, I took a look into the law in Canada.

The Royal Canadian Mounted Police site has a link to the Reporting Economic Crimes Online site, which states:
"A pyramid scheme is illegal for the purposes of the Criminal Code when a person participating in the scheme becomes entitled to receive more money than they invested in the scheme by reason of recruiting others. The money is made through recruitment, while the product or service has no real value.
https://recol.ca/scams/advance_fee.aspx#pos3

Page 4 of Biracy's tour states:
"you can see how easy it is to start earning referral fees which will quickly outstrip your own membership fee."
http://www.biracy.com/tour/tour4/
Click to expand...


The entry membership is 25 dollars. What you are buying is a copy of the finished film, a membership to the cooperative, and the access to the game. Under both Canadian and US law we are providing a platform and a finished product (if we meet minimum funding requirements. I not 60% of all monies are returned and members can keep their commissions, providing that the bank allows the commissions to exit at all, in which case they would entitled to a full refund) that is totally within reason of the price tag. For all other membership levels people know they are buying additional access to the sales program. If they decide to sell or not is completely up to them. There is no front end loading of product to offload so that also puts us onside.Our response so far has been mostly 25 dollar memberships at about 70% with the other 30% opting for the 100 dollar membership. The people who are buying the 100 dollar membership are confident in their network of friends, and some have noted that the price for the entire process outlined is too low at 25 dollars.

Anyway, the initial reason all this discussion started was because someone posted a marketing link on this forum. That should have never happened, but I felt obliged to step in and explain our system as best possible with both direct responses as well as some obvious sarcasm. We've barely launched and it seems that this site is the only one that is attacking us as most people think its good idea, especially once we get out of beta and allow the site to scale and provide the platform to other filmmakers like yourselves.

I think I've answered everyone's questions here; however, if not...please contact me directly at dgeertz@biracy.com and I will be happy to answer any and all questions about the current project, it's timelines, and the future of our platform at www.sokap.com

thanks for all your input.

David Geertz
 
I dont get art by committee. I believe that great art can only happen under dictatorships. Or at best, a dictatorship with democratic tendencies. On collaborative artforms such as film (or any project for that matter), it is required that there are many voices and many minds working together to solve problems, that is a given. But the holistic vision and direction must come from one voice, and that voice must have final authority.

What I don't understand is that Biracy seems to take away from why an independant filmmaker would want to make a film in the first place. One would say this isnt about independent film making, but if that's the case, then the current distribution/studio system would be better suited.

Now on the flip side, this is a brilliant experiment in the possibilities of community driven artwork. Through the advent of the internet we've seen the way minds all over the world have been able to collaborate in unprecedented ways. We've seen Youtube conduct the worlds first internet symphony Orchestra. Bands rehearsing online through iChat and so on. What comes out of it, may very well be unique and individual as the process itself. A Biracy film will be different, theres no doubt about that. My only issue is the level of qualification and expertise the contributing "voters" would have in the project. One may say that being a member of the "film audience" provides the ultimate qualification on what ultimately ends up being on screen. But this would be a case of "I dont know what I want, but I'll know it when I see it" wouldnt it? The creative process is very different to that I think. Its one thing to have a team of writers in a room, bouncing ideas off each other and coming up with brilliance. Its another to click a button and vote.

I'm Keen to see what comes out of it. This is an experiment after all.
 
Howard Shaw,

I used to do a lot of work for you and Hugh when you were at force 4 back in the day. I used to own pixeltoys. I am also a Capilano grad and know both Peter, Bev and Cam. I've been working in presales, and distribution for about 10 years now and I don't get your VFS comment.

Anyway, the crew of the project are all locals as well and I'm sure you know a whole bunch of them.

Your right about the forum not being right and that was my last comment. Anyway, all the best with your work. I hope you were fortunate enough to snag some 2010 gigs.

thanks
dave
 
NormLi said:
If you want to MAKE MONEY by signing up and refering your friends who refer their friends, who refer their friends....(you get the picture), you can make quite a bit money EXPONENTIALLY.
Click to expand...

I hope they have a good lawyer. I programmed the back end of an entire MLM website some years back and sat in on many meetings with lawyers and consultants etc. There's a pretty fine line between legit and pyramid. One being members can't make money on a signup fee, they can only make money on actual product sales.

Since there's no actual product completed and sold here I think it's really questionable. It seems more like an investor's prospectus situation - which is a whole other ball of wax.

All I know, I hope a lawyer familiar with this type of structure really looked it over.
 
Stephen,

As I suggested, if you'd like to put a request in writing I will look at it. All the information is on the website. The fact that you violated a privacy act by reposting my private email to you just shows that you are a typical agitator with nothing better to do than cause conflict. I'm not posting private business documents here. Even the REDUSER forum, I think would agree with me on that one.

We don't want your feedback. We're in beta. If you'd like more information on who we are partnering with in production, distribution, banking, and all things legal....wait for the press release, as there are plenty of those coming...after beta.

dave
 
Thanks for this Joel. Yes...we do have a good legal group that we worked with to ensure that no part of this project was offside. As crowdfunding is a relatively new arena, it did take us a better part of a year to build a structure that both protected the filmmakers, fans as well as any participating third party groups that would/could engage with any and all projects listed on the platform.

Your comment on value is a good one and that is why we needed to ensure that we met minimum requirements, use third party production accounting, completion bonds and bondable DGC/DGA production management members. What most people who work in production don't understand is that the system is a micro version of how studios actually work within the presales marketplace. It's no different than a sales agent preselling 1,000,000 units of DVD to 4 territories. The only difference is that now the voice of the presale is decided by the fan as whether or not

A. The wish to purchase and/or

B. The wish to tell some friends and become an agent to the project.

Great comment

Dave
 
david geertz said:
Part of that process is being approved by the US government who are very strict about structures that adopt affiliate marketing and word of mouth structures.
Click to expand...

What US Gov't branch does that????

Can you provide a link to the U.S. Government approval documents?
 
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