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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Big Change...

Harrison Diamond said:
...
I suppose that makes the tension between the sides at the wedding much less prominent than usual... after all, they were already family *ducks*

....


I'm sorry. I just couldn't help myself :innocent:
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Sorry to bring up a legal question here, but if they divorce, are they still siblings?
 
Peter Majtan said:
Red One with all the latest (FREE!!!) upgrades - both HW & SW - is as finished as it gets. we know it will keep getting better, but the camera was production-ready for me since Build 17. Have You ever used this camera at all?

Also - questioning Jim's professionalism, while You are hiding behind an anonymous user name, is really "professional"...

Just my two cents...
:) Peter
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hi peter. i do not mean to question jims professionalism. i am letting him know why i think there is so much red 'blowback' from people like that f23 guy. the reason for anonymously posting is because i have to work with some of these people in la. and around here having a opinion that does not march in step is a recipe for crucifixtion.

the reason the red one has free updates is because the camera is not finished. it should have been production ready for you a long time before build17. by the way build 17 is one of the worst builds ive used so far. a major step back from 16. yes i use the camera. no i do not own one yet. i rent for now.
 
anonymuse said:
hi peter. i do not mean to question jims professionalism. i am letting him know why i think there is so much red 'blowback' from people like that f23 guy. the reason for anonymously posting is because i have to work with some of these people in la. and around here having a opinion that does not march in step is a recipe for crucifixtion.

the reason the red one has free updates is because the camera is not finished. it should have been production ready for you a long time before build17. by the way build 17 is one of the worst builds ive used so far. a major step back from 16. yes i use the camera. no i do not own one yet. i rent for now.
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Could you elaborate on the problems with Build 17? Plus, I wonder if Build 18 has addressed any of the problems you've had?
 
number6 said:
Could you elaborate on the problems with Build 17? Plus, I wonder if Build 18 has addressed any of the problems you've had?
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there are plenty of users with similar b17 problems. b17 bugs thread. i have not used a package with b18 yet.
 
Peter Majtan said:
…we know it will keep getting better, but the camera was production-ready for me since Build 17…
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No you don't. Everything is subject to change, remember?

Let me break things down the way I see it. RED One was a huge game changer. The next level, the modular system, is frickin' brilliant. However because I'm in the market for a camera in the next 6–12 months, plus we're a smaller company, plus the constantly changing specs and price points I'm having a hard time figuring out if one or more of these cameras is in our future.

I don't have the luxury of buying a camera on spec and I don't have time to obsess over hyped and promised specs that will more than likely change next month anyway.

I'm not an expert in manufacturing of electronics (or anything for that matter) but eventually to get something built you have to lock in specs. Thats not a dirty concept, but the longer that the specs are in flux the longer till I can buy a camera. And for me, thats the issue.
 
anonymuse said:
hi peter. i do not mean to question jims professionalism. i am letting him know why i think there is so much red 'blowback' from people like that f23 guy. the reason for anonymously posting is because i have to work with some of these people in la. and around here having a opinion that does not march in step is a recipe for crucifixtion.

the reason the red one has free updates is because the camera is not finished. it should have been production ready for you a long time before build17. by the way build 17 is one of the worst builds ive used so far. a major step back from 16. yes i use the camera. no i do not own one yet. i rent for now.
Click to expand...

Define "production ready". Was Build 15 production ready? Build 16?

So when beta Build 22 comes along, are you still going to be saying Red One is not production ready because a "beta" has bugs?

Will Red One always be considered "unfinished" because the company actually believes in improving and not waiting for years to implement what their customers want and need now?

If you're part of the "If it ain't broke..." crowd and prefer comforting stability and status quo, then there are other companies and cameras that have "finished" products for you to rent or buy.

But don't be surprised if they have another "finished" product in a year or two... or three. I hope you'll be well adjusted and settled-in and secure by then so you'll be able to handle any shocks of something new and improved.

If B17 isn't working for you, go back to B16 and produce your production... like all the other "professionals" that have been doing all this time.

And what happens if the builds continue to be free after "you" deem that the camera is finished? Are you going to eat your words and apologize to Jim for what is the equivalent of a slap in his face for his generosity?

He could have held back a lot of features in these updates that aren't not necessarily needed. Fix only the "production ready" stuff, and then release the niceties afterwards and charge everyone for them. But that didn't happen. I wonder why?
 
anonymuse said:
People sometimes react with personal attacks when they do not have a cogent argument of their own.
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"Well at least they are honest about it. At least people know what they are getting into when they plunk down cash months (or arguably years) in advance of product delivery to finance a concept in development."

I highly doubt that the 10% deposit for the first cameras was to finance the R&D. Jim has been pouring his hard-earned cash into this project from way before anyone "plunked" even a single cent... The deposits, in my opinion, were to judge the projected interest in such a camera...

"At least Red admits they can and will change specifications and targets, based on their whims and sense of the market, and not necessarily what their customers have requested."

The article say this like it was an admission of guilt. I think ALL companies should do that. And just to clarify - they do listen to (and more importantly accommodate) most customer-requested features, as far as they are realistic and within their vision...

"At least Red One owners are aware of the fact that their camera system will be left unfinished, frequently buggy, and still a moving development target for years."

This part is a joke... I have responded to this in my above post...

"While Red continues making announcements and pushing back development deadlines to deliver the next perfect product, a pinnacle of technical engineering… Sony, Panasonic, Canon, Nikon and others are quietly moving real product to videographers and filmmakers that require tools NOW to run their businesses and visualize their dreams. Yes, these tools may be imperfect. But then again, they actually exist outside of my dreams."

I really don't understand this part. The first models of the new DSMC concept are still scheduled for "EARLY 2009" - as originally promised. It is a completely new products that are being scheduled for much later. The only exception is the fixed-lens Scarlet, which was originally promised for "EARLY 2009" as well and has been now pushed back to the second half of the year. I am also little disappointed about this, but RED does make it very clear (as the article acknowledges) that the specifications and delivery dates are "subject to change" - COUNT ON IT!

The irony of the article is that RED is SHIPPING the Red One - which is a very real product that user can use to create some stunning works of art. And, unlike any of the other BIG companies, You can trade it in for 100% refund when the EPIC actually ships. No one is taking any deposits or reservations for the DSMC systems. But the article fails to mention this...

Bottom line - You can go today and buy the production-ready Red One and shoot for as long as You want and then trade it in at 100% for the Epic. Even if You don't - You can still upgrade the "guts" and take the Red One further ahead. But even if You do nothing - the Red One will continue to shoot brilliant images for years to come. And I have no doubt that it will keep improving. Build 18 is a testimony to this. But unlike the "BIG" companies - -You don't have to buy whole new camera to get these new features and updates...

I have my own reservations with RED - no one is perfect and they surely can't satisfy EVERYONE. But right here and right now - there is no other solution that comes even close to offer what RED does. No matter what the announcement is going to be - I am with them all the way...

:) Peter
 
This kind of discussion, arguing about different takes people have on the RED company and it's cameras is really engaging, and in my opinion something that should be taken with open arms. Even if someone (not going to say any names) doesn't really know what they're talking about it's still good to discuss things on this channel. It makes people think logically, or rather, just think.
 
So Jim,

Should we look forward to only getting new information in the wee hours tonight, or can we dream of sexy new renders?
 
Tobias Roediger said:
No you don't. Everything is subject to change, remember?

Let me break things down the way I see it. RED One was a huge game changer. The next level, the modular system, is frickin' brilliant. However because I'm in the market for a camera in the next 6–12 months, plus we're a smaller company, plus the constantly changing specs and price points I'm having a hard time figuring out if one or more of these cameras is in our future.

I don't have the luxury of buying a camera on spec and I don't have time to obsess over hyped and promised specs that will more than likely change next month anyway.

I'm not an expert in manufacturing of electronics (or anything for that matter) but eventually to get something built you have to lock in specs. Thats not a dirty concept, but the longer that the specs are in flux the longer till I can buy a camera. And for me, thats the issue.
Click to expand...

Nice post,

Most of the people on this Forum are realists, and do know the difference between vaporware and an in-hand product. For us, its great to learn what RED is thinking so that we can be ready no matter what, and in these announcements for folks in our line of work it does substantially reduce the uncertainty or helps reduce or contain the universe of possibilities that we have to consider from a design engineering perspective. For you it is important to know when you will have a camera available to buy. That’s a very different question. Judging from where they are now, if the S35 is available by October 09 I will be very impressed and pleased.

What “Brain” were you leaning towards?
 
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