Best way to make SD offline dailies for Media Composer?

[Andrew Young]

Forgive me if this has been addressed, but I could not find anything current.

I will be shooting 4K or 4KHD at 23.98 and need to make offline dailies for an Avid Media Composer (v11.0.0, Mac OS 9.2.2) cutting in SD 29.97 15:1 for later recomform at 1080i. So I want to render out SD sized dailies form my MacBookPro that will import into MC as quickly as possible and that will have timecode to allow later recomform.

All of the discussion I have found on RedUser and in the Avid workflow pdf relates to DNxHD, and only DNxHD codecs are available in the Red Utilities. So what are my options for rendering out a rewrapable SD codec such as Avid DV? And how do I deal with timecode and pulldown issues given the framerate difference? Does MetaCheater accomplish this?

Michael or anyone - thanks for any guidance!

Edit: my 23.98 footage is being added to a preexisting Avid project that is being cut at 29.97 and will be mastered at 1080i.

 

[Noah Kadner]

You can easily open up proxies in the QT player and derive any possible QT format. Or you could also use Redrushes to make your offline versions. Or MetaFuze too. Also there shouldn't be any pulldown ever from this camera that comes in only when you are outputting a tape and Avid should be doing that for you automatically.

Noah

 

[Andrew Young]

Thanks for your reply, Noah. A few more specific questions based on your response, if I may:

You can easily open up proxies in the QT player and derive any possible QT format.

Yes, Avid DV is available here and in Compressor as well, however QT player is not so good for batches and doesn't do burn-in. Compressor seems to be an option on the proxies, but the burn-in won't let me change the color from black for some strange reason, so this is not ideal.

Or you could also use Redrushes to make your offline versions.

Using what codec? I don't see any Avid SD codecs (and I instaled the latest from Avid's site).

Or MetaFuze too.

Haven't tried this yet, but it sounded like it was designed around DNxHD.

Also there shouldn't be any pulldown ever from this camera that comes in only when you are outputting a tape and Avid should be doing that for you automatically.

I should have clarified - the footage is being added to a preexisting project the is being cut at 29.97 - mostly NTSC stock footage and 720p60 interviews.

If you have any additional thoughs, I'd love to hear them.

 

[Jason Diamond]

you need to choose AVID Compressed when you choose your codec and then choose the resolution you want in the codec's settings. it's all there.

let me know if you have any issues.

 

[Andrew Young]

you need to choose AVID Compressed when you choose your codec and then choose the resolution you want in the codec's settings. it's all there.

let me know if you have any issues.

Hi Jason,

Thanks for your advice. I have installed the latest Codecs from Avid but "Avid Compressed" is not an option to me in RedRushes or RedCine. All of the Avid codecs listed are various versions of DNxHD with with either 1080 or 720 HD resolutions attached to them. The offline editor is working at SD 15:1 30i so I was hoping to find an Avid SD codec to render to. What am I doing wrong? Do I need to find additional SD codecs and install them?

 

[M Most]

The offline editor is working at SD 15:1 30i so I was hoping to find an Avid SD codec to render to. What am I doing wrong? Do I need to find additional SD codecs and install them?

There is no reason I can think of to cut a 24 frame production at 30i when videotape isn't a part of the post process. Every current Avid system can add 3:2 pulldown to a 23.98 SD project when outputting a digital cut, and going 24->30->24 only serves to muddy the waters for conforming. Additionally, every current Avid system can handle HD resolutions using DNxHD compression, although not with a client monitor unless you've got a Mojo DX or better. My suggestions would be:

1. Forget 30i. Make this a 23.98 project.
2. Consider using HD. If it's a small system, you might want to try 720p/23.98, and convert using Red Rushes at quarter res debayer. This will create your cutting copies very quickly on a modern Mac, probably no more than 1.5 times running time. The files will also fast import into Avid if you set up your options properly. Note: You'll have to use Metacheater with the NTSC options to create the ALE because Avid currently accepts only valid video formats (720p/60 is one such format, but 720p/24 is a data only format). You can also use 1920x1080, but that will take a bit longer to convert.
3. If you really want to use SD, you can create an SD 23.98 project, make the ALE using Metacheater, and batch import from either the "M" or "P" proxies directly. This will take a bit longer, but save you additional steps.

Oooh, just noticed this is Andy Young I'm responding to. Hi, Andy! I'm back in Los Angeles now. Feel free to send me a PM if you'd like me to get more detailed on this.

 

[Andrew Young]

There is no reason I can think of to cut a 24 frame production at 30i when videotape isn't a part of the post process. Every current Avid system can add 3:2 pulldown to a 23.98 SD project when outputting a digital cut, and going 24->30->24 only serves to muddy the waters for conforming. Additionally, every current Avid system can handle HD resolutions using DNxHD compression, although not with a client monitor unless you've got a Mojo DX or better. My suggestions would be:

1. Forget 30i. Make this a 23.98 project.
2. Consider using HD. If it's a small system, you might want to try 720p/23.98, and convert using Red Rushes at quarter res debayer. This will create your cutting copies very quickly on a modern Mac, probably no more than 1.5 times running time. The files will also fast import into Avid if you set up your options properly. Note: You'll have to use Metacheater with the NTSC options to create the ALE because Avid currently accepts only valid video formats (720p/60 is one such format, but 720p/24 is a data only format). You can also use 1920x1080, but that will take a bit longer to convert.
3. If you really want to use SD, you can create an SD 23.98 project, make the ALE using Metacheater, and batch import from either the "M" or "P" proxies directly. This will take a bit longer, but save you additional steps.

Oooh, just noticed this is Andy Young I'm responding to. Hi, Andy! I'm back in Los Angeles now. Feel free to send me a PM if you'd like me to get more detailed on this.

Hey Mike,

I tried calling you yesterday but no luck. Good advice, but the project is months into editing, so I have to conform to their preexisting specs. I was wondering if I should just output my R3Ds to HD tape and downconvert the old fashioned way, but I was hoping there was an easier way. I'll PM you.

 

[Jason Diamond]

there is no access to AVID SD codecs in REDs Tools i don't think. you would need to use compressor or something else as far as i know.

 

[Andrew Young]

there is no access to AVID SD codecs in REDs Tools i don't think. you would need to use compressor or something else as far as i know.

Thanks Jason,

It seems like I'm in a bit of a pickle now because the production is editing on older avids that can only import the Avid DV codec. They can't import when I give them a DVCPro or a DNxHD codec and I'm trying to avoid asking them to upgrade for the sake of my Red. Compressor does work but for some maddening reason, it would let me change the timecode burn in to anything other then black, which is totally useless for this footage. Fun...

 

[Greg Huson]

We set up a project like this recently for a client who was editing at another facility (freebie that we couldn't offer at the time) on an older mac. It's a multi-step process, but very doable.

Have you tried simply importing the proxies?

I have a little book keeping to do, then I'll experiment and send some suggestions if you haven't already licked the problem. Pretty sure you'll need an intel mac no matter what, so you may have to borrow a laptop or tower at least for part of the job. Don't forget you can try Avid MC Software only for 14 days for free- might have to use that as a transcode- engine from DNX to JFIF.

 

[MichaelP]

The issue is editing at native 23.976 or at 29.97 with 2:3 pulldown. The former is somewhat straightforward, the latter requires more steps. Try opening R3D via QT proxy in After Effects, add a 2:3 pulldown, render to Avid SD resolution and see if that works for you.

Michael

 

[Greg Huson]

You can simply import the proxie files. However, that doesn't help with your time code, of course.

So, here's the procedure I'd try:
Using RedRushes (I noticed from your original post you have a macbook)
Generate new 'M' proxies into a new folder. Pull all those QTs into MetaCheater (free download) and click the 24>30 button in the lower right. Save the ALE. Create a new project in media composer @ 30i and set the media creation settings to OMF. (3.x or newer, you can test the software free for 14 days, so use that as your transcode engine.) Import the ALE, then batch import the shots at dv25. (I think 15:1s is gone.) Avid will add a pulldown on import (but I'm not sure it's 3:2- the motion in my shots isn't fast enough to be certain, but it looks a little like 2224 (or rather ABCDD, if you wil, but don't quote me on that.)

You can now give the OMF media folder and the project you made over to the other system, they can open the bin and copy it into their job. I no longer have a meridien system to test this, but we've used this basic workflow to move a job over to essentially the same system you're moving over to. Make sure your audio sample and bit depth matches the job you're adding into- older avids will only do 16 bit audio. You can set the import settings to convert to what you need on import.

For picture, If you set your import settings for 'image sized correctly for raster' you'll get anamorphic; if you set it for 'resize image to fit raster' you'll get letterbox.

Test this work flow out before shooting the whole job! Shoot a couple of shots and got through the whole procedure with the end-user's editor or assistant editor. A good film AE won't have any problems with these tricks. There is a lot of time spent converting and transcoding, so consider that in your budget.

The one shortcoming of this method is that I'm not sure you'd be able to use .RSX on the import- you'll be stuck with the field metadata in your dailies.

Getting to online is yet another stunt, but not very dissimilar. The online editor separates the RED-originated files, generates new files using Rubber Monkey Extract (or other similar programs) and those are cut into the final project.

A completely different option is to send the files to someone like us, and we make HDCam (or whatever) out of them, and then the company you're delivering to can use a traditional online. This would also solve the problem of the irregular pulldown created by importing 23.98 into 29.97. (Why Avid doesn't do correct pulldown is a question to be answered!)

Yet another option would be to use after effects as a render engine. At least that way you'd get a proper 3:2 pulldown, but you'd pretty much have to do the whole thing by hand.

I think you can do this all with compressor, too. Let me get back to you on that one.

 

[Greg Huson]

Looks like MP beat me to it, and he's the voice of authority. If the 2224 file works for you, fine, my method is quick-ish. Otherwise, looks like you're stuck with going to tape or AE. In compressor, you still get 2224, even with the frame controls on. If you set 'rate conversion' to highest quality, your render time increases massively, and you're still not getting proper 3:2. Nice frame blending, though - looks like 29.97! Time code's a littel tweaked, though- you'd need to spend a little time chasing that down (and still need to use metacheater to read the code and make an ALE.)

gh

 

[Andrew Young]

Thanks Michael and Greg for chiming in. Let me be more specific:

The issue is editing at native 23.976 or at 29.97 with 2:3 pulldown. The former is somewhat straightforward, the latter requires more steps. Try opening R3D via QT proxy in After Effects, add a 2:3 pulldown, render to Avid SD resolution and see if that works for you.

Actually, I'm OK with the funky pulldown Avid adds on import, as long as I can properly match it back to the 24p later (will render intakes to DNxHD and conform in Nitris), so I'd rather not bother with After Effects for rendering out dailies with TC and burn in. The problem is a) finding a codec to render to that my client's aging Avids can import (so far only Avid DV is working and that's not available in any of the Red Apps) and b) if I do find another codec that works, getting MetaCheater to work properly. Once I generate the ALE using the 24 to 30 setting, how do I link that to the newly imported clip that has the pulldown added? I don't have Media Composer here and the AE on the production is unable to get the linking to happen. Any advice on these two issues would be much appreciated. Shoot begins on Monday.

Greg: The prodution does not have intel Avids, so they wont be able to do anything with proxies. Your idea of getting the demo Media Composer myself and using it to create the Avid Media from the proxies is interesting, but if it doesn't have 15:1 they are going to probably have make new media anyway. Might give it a try though, if the demo is really available. And yes, I did consider doing this the tape route, I just thought there would be an easier way by now.

Thanks for any additional thoughts you might have.

 

[MichaelP]

Create QT refs from REDrushes. Use Metacheater to make an ALE. Import ALE then import the proxies and let Avid do the its funky thing.

Michael

 

[Andrew Young]

Create QT refs from REDrushes. Use Metacheater to make an ALE. Import ALE then import the proxies and let Avid do the its funky thing.

Michael

Thanks Michael, but it would be great if you could be a bit more specific. I'm working with an assistant editor who has been able to import the media and the MetaCheater ALE file, but does not know how to link the two so that the imported clip has the timecode from the Quicktime, but now in 30 fps format. Their working on a Media Composer 11.0.0 on Mac OS 9.2.2 (yes, it's that old). Many thanks.

 

[Andrew Young]

OK, I figured out how to link the clips created by the MetaCheater ALE to the imported media - Batch Import was the key. I had been using import and they were not linking up. Now I'm just trying to figure out if I render out SD dailies in JPEG or Motion JPEG and have their Avid import them.

 

[MichaelP]

Yes, the batch import process is the same as in the step by step guide here: www.avid.com/red.

I had assumed you read that already. Sorry.

Michael

 

[MichaelP]

Also... you will want to highlight the entire START column and do a cmd-D or ctrl-D and select TC24 from the pop up dialog box - this will get you back to the original 24fps TC for metadata tracking.

Michael

 

[Andrew Young]

Also... you will want to highlight the entire START column and do a cmd-D or ctrl-D and select TC24 from the pop up dialog box - this will get you back to the original 24fps TC for metadata tracking.

Thanks Michael,

Will that allow them to output a 24fps edl of the Red footage that I can use to render out the intakes at full quality DNxHD with Monkey Extract?

For the SD dailies I discovered that I can render out to the JPEG codec at 720x480 and they can import it into their standard def project without a hitch.