Best settings for night time / low light shoot

[Antonio Ribeiro]

Hi folks,

I am going on a trip soon to film a number of memorial cerimonies, candle lit at night kind of thing. I have no doubt about the Scarlet's capabilities but would like to see what you guys think from your experience of shooting night time.

What camera settings work out best? And which of these would you use?

1. Film Log
2. RedGamma 2
3. red Gamma 3

I will do a BlackShading before I start and can use NeatVideo to finish it off, but I really just want to avoid noise as much as possible. Thanks.

 

[David Battistella]

Id use rc 3, rg3 in camera. Maybe leave it at 800 or 1000 iOS in camera for focusing.

in post, wind back the iOS as much as you can and use exposé and brightness and curves with REDlog film to get a clean image. Use available light to fill the backgrounds whenever you can

See this vimeo video. https://vimeo.com/34017981 on a canon 50mm 1.2

black shade at 180degree shutter at 24fps, 270 if you can handle the motion blur it will introduce.

the best thing to do is use fast lenses, 1.4, 1.2 if possible and when possible, it makes a world of difference.

pray for rain or a light mist, enough to wet the streets, it makes the night stuff pop much more because of the reflections.

You can maybe rent some fast lenses.

The best thing you can do is get the fastest glass, that will make a huge, huge difference, 2.8 is SLOW in this kind of situation.

 

[Mike P.]

Yeah, I would say f1.4 at ISO800 is a good place to start (not so good for your focus puller though). I would also end up reducing ISO to 320 or 500 in post to try to minimize noise across the entire scene and then use a curve to bring up the mids (which generally have more light than the shadows and hence won't look as dirty when they're raised back up to ISO800 levels via the curve).

What I (and others) have noticed is that, even when things are dark, as long as there is light hitting the sensor you can get away with quite a bit via boosting ISO, noise reduction, and eventually downsampling to 1080p. The problem comes about when you're trying to boost a signal that really isn't there. This is why fast glass works fairly well even when the image is still massively underexposed -- glass is lower contrast wide open and at a certain point (~f1.4) it's letting in at least some light even if there is very little present.

May be worth trying a camera mounted light that is really diffused and dimmed down (so as not to create shadows and so the subject does not seem "lit"). That way at least everything within 10 feet will have some illumination (which will also help when you try to manipulate in post).

Another thing to consider is either desaturate or leave whatever colour cast you have when setting the camera at daylight. If the ambient light is tungsten (or worse, street lights) if you try to white balance, you'll be boosting the hell out of a severely starved blue channel. It'll look like crap even if red and green channels have a bit of light and are otherwise workable.

As for which gamma space -- REDlogFilm will be the brightest, but it'll also be noisiest as a result of the log curve mapping the dynamic range where it should be (rather than what looks the best). Honestly, I would probably go RG2; it's basically RG3, but without stretching the shadows, which inadvertently makes it less noisy whilst still keeping contrast everywhere else (whereas RLF is super flat.)

 

[James_Mills]

Id use rc 3, rg3 in camera. Maybe leave it at 800 or 1000 iOS in camera for focusing.

in post, wind back the iOS as much as you can and use exposé and brightness and curves with REDlog film to get a clean image. Use available light to fill the backgrounds whenever you can

See this vimeo video. https://vimeo.com/34017981 on a canon 50mm 1.2

black shade at 180degree shutter at 24fps, 270 if you can handle the motion blur it will introduce.

the best thing to do is use fast lenses, 1.4, 1.2 if possible and when possible, it makes a world of difference.

pray for rain or a light mist, enough to wet the streets, it makes the night stuff pop much more because of the reflections.

You can maybe rent some fast lenses.

The best thing you can do is get the fastest glass, that will make a huge, huge difference, 2.8 is SLOW in this kind of situation.

Jesus, what a beautiful video, thanks for sharing. I had no idea the Scarlet was capable of that kind of low light performance...

 

[Paramon Ivanovich]

just like David says, the fastest lens you can get, the lowest compression you can afford, in post go down ISO 400 - 500, and if it's not a lot of movement sometimes i even do shutter 360, but that's questionable
i would stay away from on camera light, but if the situation permits double scrimed tungsten bounced off the mirror, or gold color surface reflector, matches candle light very well and will help you big time.
if you comfortable with redlog film in post - shoot redlog , if not i woud shoot color 3 gamma 3.
good luck, you'll need it too.

 

[David Battistella]

Yes,

6:1 compression compared to 8:1 is a huge difference. Also be sure to use full debayer on low light images as this will yield cleaner results.

david

 

[jimhare]

Of course none of these camera settings will affect the outcome. Only shutter speed and the physical f/stop on the lens do this, everything else is metadata.

When you're in post you can experiment with the best settings, trying them one by one.

If you have grading exprerience, Redlog Film will give you the best starting point, but you will have to find your way to a beautiful image. RG3 is probably your next best choice, but it's not as good when you want to pull things out of the shadows and there has already been a stiff curve applied and you and applying a second curve on top.

While shooting, feel free to crank the ISO right up so you can really see and focus on the image. Always have your lense wide open.

If you have slow lenses, f/2.8 or slower, you may need to sacrifice the 180º shutter and use 360. Crime against art, I know, but is literally your last resort if there just isn't enough light. Unfortunately that is a decision you won't be able to take back later, you must commit.

Hope this helps!

Hi folks,

I am going on a trip soon to film a number of memorial cerimonies, candle lit at night kind of thing. I have no doubt about the Scarlet's capabilities but would like to see what you guys think from your experience of shooting night time.

What camera settings work out best? And which of these would you use?

1. Film Log
2. RedGamma 2
3. red Gamma 3

I will do a BlackShading before I start and can use NeatVideo to finish it off, but I really just want to avoid noise as much as possible. Thanks.

 

[Antonio Ribeiro]

Id use rc 3, rg3 in camera. Maybe leave it at 800 or 1000 iOS in camera for focusing.

in post, wind back the iOS as much as you can and use exposé and brightness and curves with REDlog film to get a clean image. Use available light to fill the backgrounds whenever you can

See this vimeo video. https://vimeo.com/34017981 on a canon 50mm 1.2

black shade at 180degree shutter at 24fps, 270 if you can handle the motion blur it will introduce.

the best thing to do is use fast lenses, 1.4, 1.2 if possible and when possible, it makes a world of difference.

pray for rain or a light mist, enough to wet the streets, it makes the night stuff pop much more because of the reflections.

You can maybe rent some fast lenses.

The best thing you can do is get the fastest glass, that will make a huge, huge difference, 2.8 is SLOW in this kind of situation.

Hi David, this is such great advice. Thank you very much for taking the time and great video.

I think the other issue this brings up is camera stability and the ability to cover a live event in a way that safeguards sharpness as much as possible. Slow motion is an option and in the Scarlet if you shoot 48fps at 3K you are reducing DOF slightly due to sensor crop but still benefiting from a wider lens aperture. What are your thoughts on this?

Thanks
A

 

[Antonio Ribeiro]

Yeah, I would say f1.4 at ISO800 is a good place to start (not so good for your focus puller though). I would also end up reducing ISO to 320 or 500 in post to try to minimize noise across the entire scene and then use a curve to bring up the mids (which generally have more light than the shadows and hence won't look as dirty when they're raised back up to ISO800 levels via the curve).

What I (and others) have noticed is that, even when things are dark, as long as there is light hitting the sensor you can get away with quite a bit via boosting ISO, noise reduction, and eventually downsampling to 1080p. The problem comes about when you're trying to boost a signal that really isn't there. This is why fast glass works fairly well even when the image is still massively underexposed -- glass is lower contrast wide open and at a certain point (~f1.4) it's letting in at least some light even if there is very little present.

May be worth trying a camera mounted light that is really diffused and dimmed down (so as not to create shadows and so the subject does not seem "lit"). That way at least everything within 10 feet will have some illumination (which will also help when you try to manipulate in post).

Another thing to consider is either desaturate or leave whatever colour cast you have when setting the camera at daylight. If the ambient light is tungsten (or worse, street lights) if you try to white balance, you'll be boosting the hell out of a severely starved blue channel. It'll look like crap even if red and green channels have a bit of light and are otherwise workable.

As for which gamma space -- REDlogFilm will be the brightest, but it'll also be noisiest as a result of the log curve mapping the dynamic range where it should be (rather than what looks the best). Honestly, I would probably go RG2; it's basically RG3, but without stretching the shadows, which inadvertently makes it less noisy whilst still keeping contrast everywhere else (whereas RLF is super flat.)

Hi Mike,
That's great. Agree with the reduction of the ISO in post between those values. And yes, the camera mounted light or on a very light tripod so it can hit the subject more at an angle is something I've used before. I have this LED dimmable light, that I use with a slight magenta diffused to take out the 3200K edge that works really well and usually I can use it in a very low setting.

The point you make about white balance and having a starved Blue channel, this is something you can compensate by turning the K to about 3200, right?

I also agree with the RG2 setting. To be honest I find it a better setting to then move to Resolve for the grade. Just having this experience actually with this other film.

 

[Antonio Ribeiro]

just like David says, the fastest lens you can get, the lowest compression you can afford, in post go down ISO 400 - 500, and if it's not a lot of movement sometimes i even do shutter 360, but that's questionable
i would stay away from on camera light, but if the situation permits double scrimed tungsten bounced off the mirror, or gold color surface reflector, matches candle light very well and will help you big time.
if you comfortable with redlog film in post - shoot redlog , if not i woud shoot color 3 gamma 3.
good luck, you'll need it too.

Hey Paramon,

Thanks for your advice. Gold colour reflector is a great tool, specially for darker skin tones.

A

 

[Antonio Ribeiro]

Of course none of these camera settings will affect the outcome. Only shutter speed and the physical f/stop on the lens do this, everything else is metadata.

When you're in post you can experiment with the best settings, trying them one by one.

If you have grading exprerience, Redlog Film will give you the best starting point, but you will have to find your way to a beautiful image. RG3 is probably your next best choice, but it's not as good when you want to pull things out of the shadows and there has already been a stiff curve applied and you and applying a second curve on top.

While shooting, feel free to crank the ISO right up so you can really see and focus on the image. Always have your lense wide open.

If you have slow lenses, f/2.8 or slower, you may need to sacrifice the 180º shutter and use 360. Crime against art, I know, but is literally your last resort if there just isn't enough light. Unfortunately that is a decision you won't be able to take back later, you must commit.

Hope this helps!

Hey Jim,

Thanks for the info. Yes, I think I won't be using my 24-70mm f2.8 for this job and just think faster on my legs to get those nice bits of framing.

 

[David Battistella]

Hi David, this is such great advice. Thank you very much for taking the time and great video.

Slow motion is an option and in the Scarlet if you shoot 48fps at 3K you are reducing DOF slightly due to sensor crop but still benefiting from a wider lens aperture. What are your thoughts on this?

Thanks
A

There are a few slomotion considerations.

There are a few shots in the peice at 48fps., but there was not crop factor at 5k or compression change. You loose a full stop every step up.

1stop@48
2stop@72
3stop@96
etc.

fast wider primes are harder to come by so a 24 1.4 might be your best bet if you want to shoot 48.
Consider doing 30fps at a 24 timebase at 4k. Those six extra frames can add a lot in terms of stability and also not look to slomo. I often use 32fps or even 26fps at 5k with handheld shots.

Anything with onboard or sync audio means you will have to stick to 24p at 4k.

Someone did advise a small LED light and it is a jewel. Just avoid it on a camera as everything ends up looking a bit like news. I used one light panel mini on a boom pole to push a little light into the right places in that night piece I posted. Trick is to use just enough and not overlight, but balance it with the rest if your scene. Make sure it has a dimmer. cto will help as has been suggested. What looks good at 800iso will usually end up being right.

Use 3k when you can but bump the compression up to 5:1 for those shots to offset cropping noise a bit.

David

 

[Mike P.]

The point you make about white balance and having a starved Blue channel, this is something you can compensate by turning the K to about 3200, right?

I also agree with the RG2 setting. To be honest I find it a better setting to then move to Resolve for the grade. Just having this experience actually with this other film.

By lowering the colour temp to anything south of 3200k, you'll be boosting the severely starved blue channel in order to get white balance. Under normal studio tungsten, while the blue channel is inherently weaker, you still have plenty of (blue) light to boost via white balance, so it doesn't look too bad. HOWEVER, in low light (particularly tungsten, even worse in candle light), you'll be pushing an almost non-existant blue channel to match your (surprisingly strong) red and green channels and it'll make the image really dirty, really quickly. Often times, I reduce the blue channel by 10% even after leaving it at 3200k...

Here's the thing; low-light tungsten or candle light is closer to 2200k~2800k, so even when the camera is set to "studio tungsten" at 3200k, the scene will still look incredibly warm... If you embrace that warmth (the warm tone of shooting ~2200k-2800k lights at 3200k camera), you're images will hold together much farther than if you try to actually make white = white. If you really hate warm tones, you're better off leaving the files at 3200k and adding the "photographic filter" ("82c" preset) or using the blue curve in After Effects on an adjustment layer. That way you aren't trying to boost the weak raw blue channel (which will get grainy), but adding "computer generated" blue (32bit, non-destructively) on top of your warm/raw file. It'll be WAAAAY cleaner than using the wb picker in RCXp to lower your colour temp to match the white of lowlight candles/tungsten.

Also, I may have been presumptuous with the "camera mounted" dimmable light... As others have said, taking the light slightly off camera a few degrees will give you much nicer (less "news-like") results while still giving the scene's ambient light that extra kick in the pants needed to have some photons hitting the sensor.

When you're dealing with low-light, high frames rates will only make things harder (as they drop exposure due to the increase in shutter required.)

I'd say you get a 24mm 1.4... Stupid expensive, but you can always punch in (crop) to a 3k frame and still have roughly a ~40-50mm FOV. While a 50 1.2 would be sweet (and probably cheaper than a decent 24 1.4), 50mm on s35 feels really long and makes stable images very difficult when shooting handheld... That said, 1.2 is 1/2 a stop brighter than 1.4 (which is two full stops brighter than 2.8)... When it comes to low-light, 1/2 a stop can make or break a shot. Also, try a test with the lens(es) when you get it (them); remember, wide-open glass, even the best stuff, tends to be quite a bit softer/ghosty looking than when it's stopped down to even f2.

OH, and if you're going handheld, avoid 1/24th shutter at all costs... It'll look like crap; you'd be better off shooting at 1/48th and merely having "floating" candle lit faces in an otherwise black shot. That said, if you're locked off on a tripod, you may be able to get away with 1/24th (especially if people aren't moving that much.)

EDIT: I just thought of another thing -- if 1080p is fine, maybe try to get your hands on an off-board recorder... You'll need to set whitebalance and ISO (since it would no longer be RAW), but you'll get 5k-downscale (which is better for low light itself) and you'll have a stop cleaner footage (ISO1600 to offboard recorder can look as clean as ISO800 REDcode 6:1 in low-light situations)...

 

[Antonio Ribeiro]

By lowering the colour temp to anything south of 3200k, you'll be boosting the severely starved blue channel in order to get white balance. Under normal studio tungsten, while the blue channel is inherently weaker, you still have plenty of (blue) light to boost via white balance, so it doesn't look too bad. HOWEVER, in low light (particularly tungsten, even worse in candle light), you'll be pushing an almost non-existant blue channel to match your (surprisingly strong) red and green channels and it'll make the image really dirty, really quickly. Often times, I reduce the blue channel by 10% even after leaving it at 3200k...

Here's the thing; low-light tungsten or candle light is closer to 2200k~2800k, so even when the camera is set to "studio tungsten" at 3200k, the scene will still look incredibly warm... If you embrace that warmth (the warm tone of shooting ~2200k-2800k lights at 3200k camera), you're images will hold together much farther than if you try to actually make white = white. If you really hate warm tones, you're better off leaving the files at 3200k and adding the "photographic filter" ("82c" preset) or using the blue curve in After Effects on an adjustment layer. That way you aren't trying to boost the weak raw blue channel (which will get grainy), but adding "computer generated" blue (32bit, non-destructively) on top of your warm/raw file. It'll be WAAAAY cleaner than using the wb picker in RCXp to lower your colour temp to match the white of lowlight candles/tungsten.

Also, I may have been presumptuous with the "camera mounted" dimmable light... As others have said, taking the light slightly off camera a few degrees will give you much nicer (less "news-like") results while still giving the scene's ambient light that extra kick in the pants needed to have some photons hitting the sensor.

When you're dealing with low-light, high frames rates will only make things harder (as they drop exposure due to the increase in shutter required.)

I'd say you get a 24mm 1.4... Stupid expensive, but you can always punch in (crop) to a 3k frame and still have roughly a ~40-50mm FOV. While a 50 1.2 would be sweet (and probably cheaper than a decent 24 1.4), 50mm on s35 feels really long and makes stable images very difficult handheld... That said, 1.2 is 1/2 a stop brighter than 1.4 (which is two full stops brighter than 2.8)... When it comes to low-light, 1/2 a stop can make or break a shot. Also, try a test with the lens(es) when you get it (them); remember, wide-open glass, even the best stuff, tends to be quite a bit softer/ghosty looking than when it's stopped down to even f2.

OH, and if you're going handheld, avoid 1/24th shutter at all costs... It'll look like crap; you'd be better off shooting at 1/48th and merely having "floating" candle lit faces in an otherwise black shot. That said, if you're locked off on a tripod, you may be able to get away with 1/24th (especially if people aren't moving that much.)

EDIT: I just thought of another thing -- if 1080p is fine, maybe try to get your hands on an off-board recorder... You'll need to set whitebalance and ISO (since it would no longer be RAW), but you'll get 5k-downscale (which is better for low light itself) and you'll have a stop cleaner footage (ISO1600 to offboard recorder can look as clean as ISO800 REDcode 6:1 in low-light situations)...

Bingo! An external recorder (Hyperdeck Shuttle 2) is something I was thinking about as well and you are so right about the enhancement of low light capabilities. I was shooting the Cyrus Cilinder at the British Museum in a very dingy lit room and the 5K / 1080p down conversion saved my back side. Let's see if I can get my hands on a 24mm 1.4 lens...

Thanks for this.

A

 

[Alonzo Von Threet]

It's pretty amazing how the dark areas snap into place with no noise once there is any light area or spot in the frame. Also NeatVideo is a godsend. Great thread .