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Best portable recorder for classical music?

Best portable recorder for classical music?

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Ron Lee

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hello everyone,
I am a total newbie so please excuse if I come across too uninformed for this forum.
I am a professional classical pianist trying to choose best portable audio recorder for my rehearsals and practice.
My main purpose is to be able to observe my performance from point of view of the audience since the acoustic while performing in front of the instrument and listening in the audience are quite different. I would like to be able to better estimate my sound in oder to to achieve most optimal dynamic changes. I will be mostly using the recorder in my practice room, which is rather confined, or other times in concert hall during rehearsals.
It would be my first time purchasing one of these semi-professional portable recorders so I would greatly appreciate your help.
I am considering Tascam DR-100 MKII, Marantz PMD-661, Roland R-26, Olympus LS-100 as possible purchase but I wouldn't mind spending a bit less for Zoom H-4N or Tascam DR-40 if there isn't much recording quality difference and they serve my purpose well enough.
My main concern is which of these machine can capture my performance to it's original sound regarding tone color and dynamic change. I have tried using conventional cassette recorder, minidisc recorder and etc. in the past to listen to myself in practice realizing that it doesn't record fine nuances in music. When I play very soft the recorder automatically tried to focus on the sound more which resulted in more background noise and sound being recorded louder than it actually was. And when I play loud it couldn't handle the intensity and the recording ended up sounding distorted (often times also because my practice happens in small rooms).
I would greatly appreciate your opinions on which of these machines would be best suited to my purpose of observing classical piano music performance to finest nuances and dynamic changes so I can make detailed corrections in my performance.
I have couple of rather good microphones so it would be a plus if I could plug in phantom powered microphones to make richer recording in bigger rooms. And maybe I can also sync it with video if the recording turns out good enough.
Thanks guys.
 
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For what it is worth, this clip was recorded with three Rode NT2a mikes, via a 3 into 2 mix through a Sound Devices three channel mixer feeding a Zoom H4n. The three Rode mikes were arranged as a Decca tree. From memory the side mikes were switched as Figure 8 pickup pattern. The centre mike was switched omnidirectional. The centre mike was fed to L and R track. The side mikes fed individually to L and R track. Post processing of the audio in this clip was limited to normalising the levels across ther L and R channels.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWpBhIyuq8k


A week beforehand, when the orchestra was first working up the piece of music, I did a Decca tree test with Sony C74 directional mikes as the side mikes and a Rode NT2a switched to omindirectional in the centre. The Sony mikes were directed about 45 degrees off centre and about 10 degrees down from level. The hope was to use a rear lobe in the C74 pickup pattern to fake a sort of Figure 8 pickup pattern with each. The recording with the Sonys is a bit more apparently brilliant but not as pleasant a listen. The orchestra was more ragged in this rehearsal as it was theri first play through. In this instance the mikes were routed via a Yamaha MG155c mixer to the same Zoom H4n recorder.

At that point I was trying to make do with what I had on hand. I was counselled wisely by an audio engineer that I should respect my performer's with mikes more suited to the task, which is why the two NT2a mikes were substituted.

Because there was a lot of variance in the levels from very quiet to strident, in this clip I applied compression in an audio editor, so it is not representative of natural ambience.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPsmk_ijz2k


There will be better advice to take heed of than my comments. The audio after compression to youtube is not a good reference for you but hopefully a hint of what the H4n with decent mikes can do. There are better recorders. There are also more practical and easier setups than the Decca tree arrangement we used.
 
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None of the above. None of the cheap recorders listed have preamps good enough for top-quality classical music, in my opinion.

I do know classical engineers who use the Sound Devices 702 for very simple, 2-channel setups (like two spaced omnis). Realistically, I think a case can be made that you need the flexibility of multiple microphones nowadays, but that's a long debate. I think if the recording is stationary, there's no reason why external preamps and a laptop with Pro Tools couldn't be used. Some purists believe high-res recordings are necessary for classical, going up to a sampling frequency of 192kHz and 24 bits, but it's fair to say this is a controversial area. Schoeps mics are often very high on the list of top microphones for classical works, particularly the 641 hypercardioid or the MK4 cardioid. High-end microphones are wasted on $5 preamps (IMHO).

David Miles Huber's Modern Recording Techniques goes into this in quite a bit of detail. And you can get more advice from the classical engineers who hang out on the Gearslutz Forum, elsewhere on the net.
 
What Marc said. None of the devices listed is sufficient.

Two good channels is going to cost a lot of money. Typically you might use a stereo pair - Mic Amp - External A/D converter - AES to your digitial recorder. In this set up the external amp and A/D converter are being used on the assumption that even the amps and the A/D conversion on a device like the 722 are not good enough.

The set up I use is Schoeps stereo pair (with various capsules)- Pendulum Audio Tube Mic Pre - Dan Lavry A/D Converter - AES to 744T. The sound that that set up produces is a world away from recording directly to the 744T even though it is an excellent recorder. The quality of each component in the chain is really important, but the the quality of your analog to digital conversion is going to make a big difference.

All the best.
 
Yep ... Rob & Marc are right ;( I tried to use a h4n mic's by themselves, was hopeless.

There's a book I like for budget sound "Recording on a Budget: How to Make Great Audio Recordings Without Breaking the Bank", kindle version is perty good.

I use for recording classical guitar and cello:
Matched Neuman KM 184's (using a stereo setup, that is explained in the book i referenced).
I also use with the stereo pair a Neumann TLM 67 for voice.
I record with a Sound Device 744t & a mixer.

This is about the cheapest you can go and still have pro quality sound. I btw really like the Schoeps stereo pair that Rob mentions (a bit more expensive, but for classical probably the way to go). I probably need to get the Pre Amp like Rob mentioned, but I haven't bit that bullet yet.
 
I love Schoeps. Such unassuming little microphones yet incredibly natural and beautiful sound. One of my favourite Schoeps is the hypercardiod - great for dialogue in doors.

Two great Schoeps combinations for stereo recording (1) Schoeps Mid Side or (2) two of their delicious wide cardiods as a spaced pair is also wonderful.

If you are into stereo recording, a good book is Ron Streicher's "The New Stereo Soundbook".

Cheers
 
Thanks guys for your input. I am learning alot here. I understand the quality of recording from such portable devices would not be good enough for listening purpose. I intend to use a portable device just to check myself during practice and rehearsals. So I expect the quality of recorded sound itself to be not the best. I only need to be able to recognize degree of nuance and balance of sound I am producing while performing. I think I would mainly be using internal mics for practice and rehearsals and just occasionally use external mics when I am home. Do you guys have good ideas about which of these devices would best help me do that? I know I am speaking like a person from different world when my purpose and expectations for recording is in such a different level from you guys.
Thanks everyone.
 
Ron, the Zoom H4N will perfectly fit your needs. Going up with expenses will surely improve the professional result, but as always with sound guys, if you let them select the gear for you, you'll end up with a Sound Devices one, a Nagra or a Cantar ;-)

The sound quality of the Zoom+its integrated mics is really nice to capture piano, listen yourself to the samples available on the net.

Kristin
 
Kristin Stewart said:
Ron, the Zoom H4N will perfectly fit your needs. Going up with expenses will surely improve the professional result, but as always with sound guys, if you let them select the gear for you, you'll end up with a Sound Devices one, a Nagra or a Cantar ;-)

The sound quality of the Zoom+its integrated mics is really nice to capture piano, listen yourself to the samples available on the net.

Kristin
Click to expand...

+1

external preamps through a laptop and a pair of schoeps is going to cost you MUCH more than you need to spend considering you just want to listen to yourself play. A Zoom or something similar should suffice if its just for the purpose of listening to yourself play. If you understand how to get a solid clean signal, you will here the small details and nuances in your playing.
 
Ron Lee said:
Thanks guys for your input. I am learning alot here. I understand the quality of recording from such portable devices would not be good enough for listening purpose. I intend to use a portable device just to check myself during practice and rehearsals. So I expect the quality of recorded sound itself to be not the best.
Click to expand...
That's totally different. Heck, a inexpensive analog deck would at least tell you how good/bad your own performance was in terms of timing and hitting the notes.

I'd put the Tascam or the Marantz higher than the others on your list. But again, so much depends on the microphones used and where the microphones are placed, that's really the biggest determining factor (to me), not the recorder per se. Recording classical music is hard. If you're a student, maybe you can find out if there are recording classes or TV/Radio classes at your school, and maybe a budding engineer would be interested in recording your work. Becoming a top engineer takes almost as much work and talent as learning to play the piano -- it truly is a skill and an art in itself.
 
+1

The most important is the microphones used and their placement. A while ago I attended a short course on miking grand piano, with an instructor from DPA, the danish microphone manufacturer. Very instructive. They have made a SACD with examples of different mic placement and how they sound, for various types of music. You can get it via the link below, or just click the link on the site to download a pdf booklet. The mics can obviously be substituted with whatever similar mics you have, and the changes in mic placement will give similar results. Good luck!

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/Microphone-University/MikingPiano.aspx

Sindre Saebo
Oslo, Norway
 
I would take the Tascam DR40 combine with a MIxPre.
It is cheaper than the zoom H4 and have a switch line in / mic in
The zoom H4 is only Mic in level and can only record Two tracks Vs 4 tracks for the Tascam.
Best
B.
 
A Zoom H4N is by far cheaper than a MixPre+Tascam. A Mixpre itself is about 900 euros.

Furthermore the H4N records in fact to 4 tracks, the built-in stereo mic + 2 mono tracks (XLR).

Brice Ansel said:
I would take the Tascam DR40 combine with a MIxPre.
It is cheaper than the zoom H4 and have a switch line in / mic in
The zoom H4 is only Mic in level and can only record Two tracks Vs 4 tracks for the Tascam.
Best
B.
Click to expand...
 
I guess I got a bit carried away ha ha. I love stereo recording which as Marc says is a real art. The marantz or the tascam would be fine for what you need.
 
Kristin Stewart said:
A Zoom H4N is by far cheaper than a MixPre+Tascam. A Mixpre itself is about 900 euros.
Furthermore the H4N records in fact to 4 tracks, the built-in stereo mic + 2 mono tracks (XLR).
Click to expand...
Since the launch of MixPre D you can find really good deal for mixpre on the second hand market.
Found one in mint condition with a brand new porta Brace bag under 400 € more than a year ago.
And by the way are the build-in stereo mic (H4N) good enough for recording classical music?
Regards
B.
 
Hi guys,
I have ben reading your comments and searching other sites and youtube to get some feeling of what the strengths and weaknesses of different devices are.
I think I am about to come to a decision after summarizing your opinions. Please let me know what you guys think.
Many people recommended Olympus LS-100. Main reason for many recommendations seem to be better quality mics and preamps. Next, people recommended Tascan DR-100 MKII. Some people seem to have likings to Tascam however there also seem to be some opposition. From what I understand people who like it favor it for reasons of quality preamp and better options. People who have lukewarm feeling about it seem to think it could be better but it's not. And even though this one was not one of my considerations, quite a few people seem to recommend Sony. I guess there are lot of people who were satisfied with its performance.
I now understand that many of you guys with much more experiences and expertise are used to higher standards of performance from these devices than me and therefor express your assessment of these devices according to your usual expectations.
Reading your responses, it inspired me to get deeper into understanding the mechanism of how quality recordings are made. I think it would be very exciting if I myself could produce something that's real quality recording.
But this portable device I am trying to buy would be just a first step to experiment with my sound so I plan to buy this one device alone and just play with it.
So I was thinking what's important to me.
I like that Olympus has nice looks and solid looking device with emphasis on good mics. I also like it has many different functions like tuner and metronome. (but I can just use tuner and metronome with my smartphone) What's minus points for me about this device is that it only runs on proprietary battery (what if I cannot recharge the battery in time or if this model or battery becomes obsolete?) and that this device doesn't have omnidirectional mic. (I think I would like to have both cardioid and omnidirectional internal mics if possible because lot of people said that recording classical music with omnidirectional mics often have better results) (at least I would be able to compare the difference of two if I had both)
Tascam DR-100 MKII is something I am seriously considering because it has both directional and omnidirectional internal mics (although I am not quite sure about quality of its omnidirectional mics since they look like just two pin wholes on the top). I also like the fact that it is powered both by rechargeable and standard AA batteries. What I don't much like is the fact that when it records, I can record only with either directional or omnidirectional mics at one time and not both at the same time.
Sony seems visually very pleasing but since it is in the process of becoming obsolete and I can't find a vendor easily, it would be out of my choices.
Marantz seem to be a device which can release its best potential when it's working with outside peripherals such as external mics. So I think it would not be one of my choices.
I am a bit hesitant to mention Roland R-26 because nobody put it as there first or second choices. But surprisingly it is the one I am seriously considering because it has both directional and omnidirectional internal mics. It uses standard AA batteries as its power source. It seems to have decent built in preamp. And i read some posts where they said it's a good device. And they say the reason why this device is not more popular is because people just don't seem to know much about it. On the other hand main points that makes me hesitant about choosing Roland are that maybe there is a reason why many people haven't used it. (maybe there were some weakness in the product that you guys knew to avoid.) The other point is just visual. It is a bit too big and visually not very appealing to me as much as Olympus or Sony. But I am willing to look past visual if it can better serve my purpose.
So I am torn between Tascam DR-100 MKII and Roland R-26 at the moment but I think I seem to tend toward Roland R-26 a bit more.
What do you guys think? Is my logic flawed and anyone want to stop me if you think I am making a bad decision?
Please let me know I think I am going to make my decision pretty soon.
Wow this is really long post. Please excuse that I wrote without gathering my thoughts concisely.
Thank you guys anyway.
 
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I have used the H4N many times and I own the DR-40. I personally like the DR-40 a bit better because it is a little smaller and feels more solid then the H4N. My only gripe thus far with the dr-40 is SD card slot door/cover is annoy to open without out fingernails and airport security thought it was a taser.
I found the line out/headphone jack to be cleaner on the DR-40 but that can vary copy to copy.
But as far as I can see they work and preform pretty much the exact same with the same features.

I picked up the DR-40 because it was cheaper then the H4N and I didnt see see where the added cost was. So far I have been very pleased with the DR-40 and really enjoyed listening to long DJ sets I had recorded while flying over the holidays.

As for the other recorders I haven't had the opportunity to work with them so I can't comment on their performance.
 
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