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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Best PL Zoom for hand held / Steadicam

Steve

I'm fully with you on the servo zoom 35mm lenses. I appreciated we can use our B4 mount HD lenses on the Red but to be honest we've never bothered, figuring we'd really be as well using them on the HDCAM camera.

I feel that those Red users from a 35mm film background are generally having an enjoyable experience with the camera but those of us from a video background are finding things a little more frustrating as we really want to be able to shoot in the same way we always have. I'm finding that whereas I can pick up a HDCAM camera and go off solo and shoot, the Red requires a lot more energy and thought and due to the weight I'm not comfortable working solo with the camera as I value my back and don't want to injur myself. With this in mind I'm REALLY looking for Red to take a little more time to think about those of us who would love to use the Red in " run n' gun" or I guess we could call it television style as opposed to film situations and I think a decent 35mm servo driven zoom lens would be a great start as would shaving off as much weight as possible. :biggrin:

I'm loving the picture we're getting from the Red, it's just the additional crew and time that's frustrating me and eating into my profit margin!

Best wishes

Scott
 
Dominic Jones said:
Doesn't that 18-200 lack an aperture ring??! Or is there a non G-series version available?

How did you manage to stop down Steve?

Interesting discussion, by the way - can't agree more on the "utility zoom" Steve, although I think the name could do with a little work ;)

Cheers,
Dom.
Click to expand...

LOL - I hadn't given much thought to an actual name for the 3-Way zoom, so yeah, "utility zoom" is really an uninteresting title! I spent a lot more time thinking about the concept and features, and not much time dreaming up a name for it.

The Nikon DX G series lenses don't have an aperture ring, but for RED One, the solution is provided by Doug Underdahl of Long Valley Equipment. Long Valley makes some very cool camera accessories and their Nikon DX RED mount is fully certified by RED - won't void your warranty. It is basically identical to the original RED Nikon mount (which was designed by Long Valley I believe), with the addition of a small brass knob on the bottom of the mount which enables you to manually change the iris on DX G series Nikon lenses.

Here's a link:
http://www.longvalleyequip.com/gdxmount.php

You can also use your Nikon lenses which have aperture rings with the mount. In real world use of the Nikon DX mount, for quick aperture changes, I simply twist the brass knob, and in the camera use the stop lights, histogram, and zebras to set exposure. For more exacting exposure setting when you have more time, you can open the lens up all the way and calibrate stops up through the aperture range (see video on LV web site).

Doug Underdahl is an excellent craftsman and very helpful. I bought two of his mounts for my RED cameras. I own three RED cameras, and one of them keeps a PL mount on it at all times - so I can use my PL mount lenses, and the other two now sport Underdahl Nikon DX mounts so I can use the many Nikon lenses I like to use on those other REDs.

Like a lot of you I'm continually looking for ways to get mobile, cost-effective, high quality shots with RED - and some of the Nikon DX G series lenses satisfy those needs.

Edit: I see Doug Underdahl beat me to post with the DX mount info by a few minutes...
 
Tony Hammer said:
Sharing experience (and some pict):
A couple of works hand held, documentary style, available light with Red zoom 18-50.

I'm very happy with the result, weight, price ratio of this lens... And a very close focus...

I don't know how performs the 50-150 from Red but might be an option to...

Don't know if it helps...
Click to expand...

No doubt Tony. Optically the RED 18-50 is quite good. It has some interesting quirks mechanically. I've owned one since August 2007 and used it a lot. The footage results from the lens are very good. But it is just a 2.7:1 zoom - nowhere the zoom ratio needed for most shoulder held "run n' gun" documentary style shooting - its a 2.7:1 zoom, plenty wide on the wide end, but not not long enough on the long end. For real effective shoulder held doc/EFP style shooting, a 6:1 zoom ratio is the starting point, and really a 10:1 zoom ratio or higher is preferable.

We did some beta testing with a prototype RED 50-150 at the L.A. RED Test event in December 2007, real world scene shots, and it performed well optically and mechanically. But again, it is only a 3:1 zoom, IMO much too small a zoom ratio for for good utility in a shoulder held doc zoom. Plus at 50mm on the wide end, it just isn't wide enough. If it was an 18-150 (8.3:1 ratio), and not giant in size, it would be a serious contender to be converted to the 3-Way zoom I described. Its undoubtedly a good zoom for many genres, but I didn't buy it because the zoom ratio doesn't fit the mobile genres I work in, and also because it doesn't have screw-on filter threads on the barrel end - and in a hyper mobile work environment I quite often use screw-on filters.
 
Steve Gibby said:
LOL - I hadn't given much thought to an actual name for the 3-Way zoom, so yeah, "utility zoom" is really an uninteresting title! I spent a lot more time thinking about the concept and features, and not much time dreaming up a name for it.
Click to expand...
Well, I'd rather it was that way round than the other - a crap zoom with a cool name ain't gonna cut it too well!!

All of the above said, "Utility Zoom" is kind of growing on me! Can I get it in battleship grey??!

Steve/Doug - thanks for the heads-up. That looks like a great mount, good work Doug. Unfortunately we've already got a Nikon mount for our Red, and what with the Epics up-and-coming, I'm a little loath to spend out on R1 specific kit. Good to know about, though...

Any plans for an Epic-compatible version when the time comes Doug?

Cheers,
Dom.
 
Scott Brown said:
Steve

I'm fully with you on the servo zoom 35mm lenses. I appreciated we can use our B4 mount HD lenses on the Red but to be honest we've never bothered, figuring we'd really be as well using them on the HDCAM camera.

I feel that those Red users from a 35mm film background are generally having an enjoyable experience with the camera but those of us from a video background are finding things a little more frustrating as we really want to be able to shoot in the same way we always have. I'm finding that whereas I can pick up a HDCAM camera and go off solo and shoot, the Red requires a lot more energy and thought and due to the weight I'm not comfortable working solo with the camera as I value my back and don't want to injur myself. With this in mind I'm REALLY looking for Red to take a little more time to think about those of us who would love to use the Red in " run n' gun" or I guess we could call it television style as opposed to film situations and I think a decent 35mm servo driven zoom lens would be a great start as would shaving off as much weight as possible. :biggrin:

I'm loving the picture we're getting from the Red, it's just the additional crew and time that's frustrating me and eating into my profit margin!

Best wishes

Scott
Click to expand...

I totally agree Scott. As I previously described in my 3-Way zoom post, in non-union, indie environments there is a huge demand for an all around, quickly convertible to multiple production styles, moderate size/weight, high zoom ratio zoom lens - and no such zoom is presently made.

I applaud the modularity, flexibility, utility, and scalability design factors of the new generation of cameras - but then for a lot of production genres, and people who regularly work in multiple genres, those same design factors need to be incorporated into a 3-Way zoom. Some entity will rise to meet that demand - and IMO they'll sell a lot of lenses. The questions are who and when...
 
Wouldn't we all Ken! Something's gotta give somewhere there, I would think - probably speed, macro and extender or alternatively, size and weight. I think the 4.5 wide end (or rather S35 equivalent) is probably a little optimistic, too.

But I hope I'm wrong!

Personally I think Steve's onto the right kind of specs: Something around a 10-12x18 (I'd definitely settle for an 18-180, personally), no extender or macro, but T2.8-ish and relatively small and lightweight. Add your own MicroForce for ENG operation.

Looking at the stills lenses on the market, that's gotta be do-able...

Cheers,
Dom.
 
Ken Willinger said:
I'd love to have a 35mm cine version of my Fujinon 13X4.5 HD lens. Same size, same weight, same functionality with extender and macro capabilities. Keep dreaming?
Click to expand...

Bingo - and add in the quick ability to remove the servo zoom unit, slap on a follow focus and matte box, and then shoot cine style - then add in the ability to strip off the servo zoom unit and simply operate the lens bare for FF35mm (or smaller) stills work.

I simply don't buy the notion that a 35mm, high zoom ratio, 3-Way zoom has to be a monster in size. The size/weight, zoom ratios, and functionality of modern 35mm stills zooms doesn't support that notion. Yes, I know that there are some internal gymnastics necessary to modify a 35mm stills zoom for smooth realtime motion zooming, but if we had the technology to fly to the moon four decades ago then surely some internal modifications of a zoom can't entail rocket science!

BTW Ken, when I shoot with B4 2/3" HD cameras like an F900R, and a wide angle zoom is what's needed for the day's shooting, my choice is always the Fujinon 13x4.5. I love that lens for its size, weight, ergonomics, and optics. I own a RED B4 adaptor, and many times I've shot 2k footage with RED using that lens (and the Fujinon 22x7.8, Fujinon 42x9.7, and Fujinon 16x6.5). But then again that is just 2k - and I really want to shoot at least 3k, and preferably 4k with RED - and nobody is yet making a 3-Way 35mm convertible zoom for cameras like R1, Epic, and Scarlet. Its inevitable that some entity will...and they'll sell a lot of lenses!

EDIT: But as Dom just mentioned, a converted 35mm stills zoom is probably the easiest way to achieve the 3-Way zoom concept. The new Inclino motor from View Factor, which I've personally tested out, is small, lightweight, and powerful. It could be adapted easily to drive a lightweight zoom. In fact, earlier this month I spent a few days at View Factor, brainstorming with Curt the many possibilities for the Inclino motor - and driving a 35mm stills zoom was the core of those conversations. More on that at a later date...
 
I think the stills lens market points to do-able smaller optics, for sure, but I still think that is a little optimistic - but maybe I'm just a pessimist!

If you take the DX 18-200 as an example, it's way slow and already designed to fit an S35-sized gate. The FF zooms that are f2.8 are around 3 or 4 to one. Now, I think it's probably possible (especially considering the low price of the 18-200) to bring it down to a constant f2.8, but I can't see widening the range out (hence the idea of an 18-180, which is pretty much the standard range I use with primes), or adding macro without a lot of optical quality loss. I guess a drop-in doubler is a possibility though.

Again, I'd love to be proven wrong, but I think you're gonna be in for a long wait for a 12-160 T1.8 lens with macro and doubler that weighs the same as that Fujinon...

So, my vote stays with the T2.8 18-180, no macro, possibly a doubler, as the best case scenario for the now much-fabled "Utility Zoom"!...

Cheers,
Dom.
 
I'd definitely agree with that Dom. A T2.8 18-180 (10:1) zoom, multi-purpose, convertible for cine/stills/EFP, small, lightweight, with a long focus throw, good barrel markings, and a removable servo-zoom unit, would be fantastic. It could be easily converted for use in cine style, 35mm stills, and EFP style work, depending on how/if you use the servo-zoom unit, and what other accessories you quickly added or subtracted from the lens. It would need to be affordable too. I'm not talking about a $35k USD zoom - but rather somewhere around probably $11k to $15k USD.

Such a lens would perfectly compliment the scalability, utility, and flexibility of Epic and Scarlet, especially the DSMC models.

It is possible - in fact IMO it will be done - hopefully sometime soon.
 
Steve Gibby said:
It is possible - in fact it will be done - hopefully sometime soon.
Click to expand...
Haste the day my friend, haste the day!

And yes, I agree - low 5-figure mark USD would be the ideal price point, leveraging sales volume by combining indie film-making, ENG, lightweight cine-usage and stills markets.

Any lens manufacturers out there listening??

You know, if any of the stills-oriented glass manufacturers (Nikon, Canon, Leica, etc) fancied taking a swing at the motion picture market, this would really be the ticket for them...

Cheers,
Dom.
 
Definitely Dom (on your Post #32). It could be that RED, with their new RED Electronic Lenses, could be a great candidate to make such a 3-Way zoom.

Fun times ahead for sure...
 
Dominic Jones said:
Steve - you added an IMO in there! You back-peddling??! ;)
Click to expand...

Nah - backpeddling isn't in my nature! Just qualifying it as my own opinion to limit the flak I'll undoubtedly catch for being too audacious in suggesting a new direction to go for zooms. I love tradition in image acquisition - but technology is enabling some amazing advances in our overall industry - so why not leverage existing technology to help fill the huge need for a 3-Way zoom?

Bring it on Mate!
 
I will make Epic/Scarlet lens mounts if there is a need, most likely. Always with final approval from RED so that all is hunky dory.

To see why you need an iris control GDX mount, look at all the lenses that are ONLY available in G or especially DX series. The DX sensor is almost the same size as the RED sensor so DX lenses are just the right size and have optimized performance for the RED 1.

As for full frame, it doesn't interest me very much for motion pictures, but more for stills. The Scarlet with a C mount adapter has me thinking about some things, though.
 
Totally agree on full-frame Doug - but there's some great, cheap glass for DX that I'd love to get into, especially for lightweight zooms...

Let's talk nearer the time!

Cheers,
Dom.
 
Tie in to the 3Way Zoom. Have Viewfactor's motor/wireless follow focus integrate with it.

I'm a fan of zooms.
 
paul engstrom said:
Tie in to the 3Way Zoom. Have Viewfactor's motor/wireless follow focus integrate with it.

I'm a fan of zooms.
Click to expand...

Yup - see the edit at the end of my Post #29 on this thread. I've already been at View Factor working with Curt on adapting their Inclino motor to my 35mm stills lenses. The Inclino is small, lightweight, and powerful. More info on those tests at a later date...
 
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