Best Microbudget Film Setup

[Finner]

Hi Pat

I assume Pat is your name. If you are interested in seeing the best religous based production on the market right now take a look at NOOMA at www.nooma.com. They put together these 12minute videos that are inspiring and incredibly done. The main presenter they use is named Rob Bell and is the best speaker I have ever heard. I have been told each 10-14 minute piece has a $150,000 budget and is shot on film. You can see they use steady cams, cranes, dollys, swing and tilt lenses and other high end equipment. check it out, the first time I saw one I was blown away. i think they have done 15 or so different ones.

If you go to www.nooma.com and look on the bottom bar that shows the different productions they have done click on "01 rain" and then in the play box click on rain film (not clip) it will let you watch that whole production the rest of the productions only show short clips. This was the first one done and the production value in the other ones is a little higher but rain is still really good.

The below link should quickly get you directly to the movie.

http://www.nooma.com/Shopping/ProductDetails.aspx?ProductID=270&Mode=WMV&PMID=122

 

[Chris Forbes]

http://www.nooma.com/Shopping/ProductDetails.aspx?ProductID=270&Mode=WMV&PMID=122

Thank you.

 

[Robert Sanders]

Don't count out the studios. I just met with a bunch in LA and they said everyone went down to Bentonville to talk to WalMart in Dec. They said WalMart owns 35-45 percent of the DVD market and all the studios want to get their products in their stores, so they went down to Bentonville to suckle from the mother hen.

They said the first question WalMart asked everybody was, "What Christian movies do you have?" They said they all went, "Doh!" and now they've all been scrambling to get more Christian content for the past 6 months. Even the Weinsteins. These studios said they've had people in pitching projects that have no business doing it, who have no experience and made themselves look ridiculous--just because there's not enough Christian filmmakers in the biz. And the studios want some of that Passion money.

This market thats not being reached enough is called the "Late Adopters." People in the midwest etc, mostly relatively conservative, who dont mind violence but dont want sex in their movies. They want names though--they're highly attracted to star power, its almost a must with them--if you're playing it safe.

The second question WalMart asked the studios: Now what Hispanic content do you have?

Yup. I've heard similar stories. I also heard that at last years Berlin film festival the buyers were surprised there were very little creature features for sale.

While America wants religious and ethnic content, Europe wants pure entertainment with lots of violence and tasteful sex.

 

[pat@hpnc.com]

Hi Finner yes its Patrick my fathers name is Pat so I just tend to go by Patrick so things dont get any more confusing.

I looked at the Nooma.com site and they are well done. Thanks for sharing it with me Have to get time to watch all of them.

 

[pat@hpnc.com]

Good to know Robert. The main thing I am interested in is religious and documentary work.

 

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

While America wants religious and ethnic content, Europe wants pure entertainment with lots of violence and tasteful sex.

Hmm, I should be making films for the European audience then! lol, there's no hope in America for me

 

[Erik Widding]

Birger / Redrock

Birger / Redrock

Oh and here is a round about way of controlling appature http://redrockmicro.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3137 And I am pretty sure someone else reverse engineered the way the Canon camera controls the lense and created a small control box.

A few of our customers are already using our existing EF controller on the M2. For example:
http://www.redrockmicro.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=24814&sid=d7958346968ce06014cff75be24bd234

You're probably refering to the ef232 from Birger (www.birger.com) who are re-engineering the device as a Canon mount for the RedOne. It can be currently bought for $980. I've just emailed Brian Valente from RedRock about the possibility of using the ef323 with their M2 adapter and if it cannot be used whether they would consider looking into adapting it.

For the time being we are using our industrial product on a mechanical adapter to go on the M2. When the RED version of the mount is available, we will offer a different mechanical adapter (for about $80) to attach it to the M2. Until we come out with our hand controller, a PDA or other device with an RS232 port can be used to control the iris. And, if you don't like cables, a BlueTooth to rs232 module can be used.

All in all the HV20, M2 adapter, Birger mount will set you back $2457. Not bad considering the results you ought to be able to get from that. It actually makes a great budget setup for RedOne owners who need a spare and are using Canon EOS lenses on the upcoming mount.

It seems to me am HV20 and an Redrock M2 (or any other 35mm adapter)would be a great way to do some preproduction work for specific projects, as well as to log some hours honing the craft before renting or buying a RED for that big shoot...

I'll do you one better... If any RedRock customers want to use our existing product with th the M2 in the interim, we will offer full trade in value against a RED mount, which will be usable on both the RED and the M2. We have been meaning to talk to Brevis/Cinevate and the other adapter people to make sure we can hit anything people might want to use. If anybody works for a "cinema lens adapter" company (i.e. brevis/cinevate) and wants to have support for our product on his, send me an email... and drawings...

Stay tuned... As I stated in a previous post, we will be announcing our RED/cinema specific product line on 2 July on reduser.

 

[PaulClements]

I'll do you one better... If any RedRock customers want to use our existing product with th the M2 in the interim, we will offer full trade in value against a RED mount, which will be usable on both the RED and the M2. We have been meaning to talk to Brevis/Cinevate and the other adapter people to make sure we can hit anything people might want to use. If anybody works for a "cinema lens adapter" company (i.e. brevis/cinevate) and wants to have support for our product on his, send me an email... and drawings...

That's amazingly generous of you Eric. If I was currently using Canon EOS I'd certainly take you up on that.

One question, do you know whether the Red Mount will be shipping with the first orders? Obviously if I or anyone was to buy a number of eos lenses to use now, it'd be good to know we could use them on the mount when our Red ships instead of having a bunch of lenses we can only use on M2 adapters until the mount is ready.

Cheers

Paul

 

[Erik Widding]

One question, do you know whether the Red Mount will be shipping with the first orders?

Yes. More details on Monday.

 

[number6]

Like I mentioned you have completely the right idea with your budget plan of staying cheap with the camera. By a long way the people I see making the biggest mistake here are the ones with little to no experience and money stretching themselves to buy a complicated, fairly expensive red one camera that they do not have the money to outfit properly or the experience to use. They are clearly setting themselves up for failure and I would believe that a newer director/Dp would make better images with the simpier camera set up you mention then a person that does not know what they are doing with a red. In fact a red used wrong will look far crappier then a hv20.

REMIND you of anyone? Heh, Heh....

Patrick, if you are this easily talked out of doing your project then you should maybe fold your tent and just foget aboud id! Don't be doin' the "turn the other cheeky" thing. Get some cohones and get out there and MAKE YOUR MOVIE YOUR WAY! If it fails, then you will have learned more about movie-making than Finner will ever impart. And if you get up off your ass and try again, then you will have learned more about yourself than you ever could by being eternally successful.

I'm sure your a nice guy, but you said you were a countryman of mine, that is, a Texan American! For crying out loud man, go eat a plate of calf-fries and MAKE A MOVIE!

P.S. i'm not suggesting anything illegal here, but maybe if in your church you are the one in charge of the collection plate, when in the annex, throw all the money up in the air while saying "Lord, keep what you want and send the rest doun to me to put toward a RED." The checks will probably float doun slowly, so you can assume all the cash is yours and the rest is the Lord's. RED takes cash.

 

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

LOL, that's what I'd do.

 

[pat@hpnc.com]

Thanks birgerEngineer for the extra info and I am sure the offer of full trade value will be appreciated by everyone.

Patrick, if you are this easily talked out of doing your project then you should maybe fold your tent and just foget aboud id! Don't be doin' the "turn the other cheeky" thing. Get some cohones and get out there and MAKE YOUR MOVIE YOUR WAY! If it fails, then you will have learned more about movie-making than Finner will ever impart. And if you get up off your ass and try again, then you will have learned more about yourself than you ever could by being eternally successful.

Hmm odd I have not been talked out of anything. Really the only thing that could look like it would be the length but that was flexible BEFORE I posted as its about what works best with the material.

I'm sure your a nice guy, but you said you were a countryman of mine, that is, a Texan American! For crying out loud man, go eat a plate of calf-fries and MAKE A MOVIE!

I really have no idea where you are getting this view I am not making a movie? Matter of fact I have been spending all my extra money and time working on preproduction to do it right so its not trash when it gets done. I really dont mind the SHUT UP AND DO IT attitude its just I think you misunderstood my will to make this and what I have been doing up to now. :mellow: As a matter of fact thats the basic thing I say to a lot of my friends. Stop wishing you could do this or that get off your *&^ and go do it.

P.S. i'm not suggesting anything illegal here, but maybe if in your church you are the one in charge of the collection plate, when in the annex, throw all the money up in the air while saying "Lord, keep what you want and send the rest doun to me to put toward a RED." The checks will probably float doun slowly, so you can assume all the cash is yours and the rest is the Lord's. RED takes cash.

Truth is I have real faith and know if I REALLY need a Red at this point it would happen. Normaly there is a difference between what we think we need and what we really need.

 

[Finner]

Very wise words Patrick.

Get some cohones and get out there and MAKE YOUR MOVIE YOUR WAY! If it fails, then you will have learned more about movie-making than Finner will ever impart. And if you get up off your ass and try again, then you will have learned more about yourself than you ever could by being eternally successful.

Patrick will more then likely be around to make a liftime of films rather then betting the farm on red23 and losing everything. Did you not read insanityfw post? I have seen people over the years do what you suggest and not one of them found any success or is even still in the film industry. Filmaking is like any other bussiness you have to learn to crawl before you can run. You don't see any indy car racers that did not begin in lower classes and smaller cars. I have seen your "work" #6 and it is painfully clear that you are not anywhere near ready to shoot anything watchable with a RED or shoot a full feature film for that matter. Anyone who thinks I am being unreasonable and way to harsh please feel free to correct me all I ask is that you first watch #6's work at www.mallowmedia.com and then post your thoughts. Honestly I may come accross as a little mean #6 but I am just trying to help you succeed by suggesting you taking things a few steps at a time.

"Lord, keep what you want and send the rest doun to me to put toward a RED." The checks will probably float doun slowly, so you can assume all the cash is yours and the rest is the Lord's. RED takes cash.

Also please for the love of God try and learn that down is spelled "down" and not "doun". I do not feel that I am a good speller by any means but this is a word we all learned to spell in grade 1.

 

[number6]

Very wise words Patrick.




Patrick will more then likely be around to make a liftime of films rather then betting the farm on red23 and losing everything. Did you not read insanityfw post? I have seen people over the years do what you suggest and not one of them found any success or is even still in the film industry. Filmaking is like any other bussiness you have to learn to crawl before you can run. You don't see any indy car racers that did not begin in lower classes and smaller cars. I have seen your "work" #6 and it is painfully clear that you are not anywhere near ready to shoot anything watchable with a RED or shoot a full feature film for that matter. Anyone who thinks I am being unreasonable and way to harsh please feel free to correct me all I ask is that you first watch #6's work at www.mallowmedia.com and then post your thoughts. Honestly I may come accross as a little mean #6 but I am just trying to help you succeed by suggesting you taking things a few steps at a time.

Thanks for the plug to (one of my) website(s)... that is actually not my work. More like my play.

That aside, and while this is a rehash of an earlier discussion, I still think we have a fundamental disagreement of the future. You still see the centralized model where one takes baby steps by going through the apprenticeship process over a period of time. I'm not sure you see the Red as anything more than a hammer. I see it as both a hammer and chisel where one with a little know-how can carve out a story in a way that is acceptable to the majority of today's viewers of content.

In short, I see the RED as a Multi-tool that will allow me to substitute machinery (a second Red) in place of expensive professionals (perhaps like yourself) so that I can record a scene in RAW data, and then dress the little nude film up in whatever clothing suits it best. If I may play a psychiatrist on the internet (I'm not a real life psychiatrist) I wonder if you maybe aren't so concerned by my approach because it may render you.... redundant (sorry, but it's probably best if you confront it now)

Also please for the love of God try and learn that down is spelled "down" and not "doun". I do not feel that I am a good speller by any means but this is a word we all learned to spell in grade 1.

O.K., I can't argue with you on this one. It's just that I had down syndrome as a kid, and it really makes me feel inferior when I think of it. So, by writing the word as 'doun', I do not relapse. Please, if you are not a sadistic, unfeeling, (redundant) person, please, please.... start spelling it doun.

 

[number6]

Hmm odd I have not been talked out of anything. Really the only thing that could look like it would be the length but that was flexible BEFORE I posted as its about what works best with the material.

I really have no idea where you are getting this view I am not making a movie? Matter of fact I have been spending all my extra money and time working on preproduction to do it right so its not trash when it gets done. I really dont mind the SHUT UP AND DO IT attitude its just I think you misunderstood my will to make this and what I have been doing up to now. :mellow: As a matter of fact thats the basic thing I say to a lot of my friends. Stop wishing you could do this or that get off your *&^ and go do it.

Truth is I have real faith and know if I REALLY need a Red at this point it would happen. Normaly there is a difference between what we think we need and what we really need.

Needs a little more edge, but still, a nice retort.

 

[Finner]

It's just that I had down syndrome as a kid,

It all makes a lot more sense with that tid-bit of information.

 

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

HAHA, I'm getting a kick out of you guys.

1) Whatever I want is always what I need, I make no distinction between wants and needs. I buy on the first impulse of wanting something. That's how I learned to evaluate the world as a philosophy major. Haha, just kidding, of course. There are so many unnecessary wants in this world... I'm as guilty as anyone.

2) As much as I love the RED, and I really do love the RED (I mean, as much as someone can without having actually used it, you know), I still don't see it as more than just a really awesome tool. Don't get me wrong, it will enable me to do a lot of things I otherwise could not, but without the strong background of how to make a good product, I mean the real hard work of having a good story, a good idea, etc., I really don't see how the RED is very useful. If I filmed a great story on MiniDV I think people could overlook the lack of quality, if they were watching good actors, good dialogue, and good production values. I really don't think anyone can overlook an awful story no matter whether it's shot in 4K or 35mm or whatever else.

The only additional thing that the RED does for me that it might not do for many other people here is it gives me a viable backup option in case my path in the music video field doesn't prove very lucrative. I at least will know that with the equipment I have I can make a living, and more than that I can get on sets I might otherwise not have been able to be on, meet people in the process, learn by watching and doing, etc. It's definitely a tool that has more than just one use (filming). For me, it's one that puts a lot more power in my hands. Of course, that being said, it must be wielded correctly, like anything, and my big goal is to make sure I am a competent storyteller with the visual medium before I try to make any really serious work that I'd be plowing my own money into. Which leads to...

3) We all have dreams of making feature films, but if you make one and spend a lot of money on it, it turns out poorly, you can't sell it or make any cash on it, this is a very discouraging experience that may force you out of the industry entirely. It takes a lot of persistence to make another one. I know for me, I wrote a very good first book, I finished it when I was in high school, it was so good in fact that I signed with New York's top literary agent Richard Curtis (who reps. Leonard Maltin, for instance, among more than 100 other noted authors; he reports $8 million a year in author earnings). He loved my book, so did a few other agents who actually became interested in me after I had signed with Richard, wondering why he signed this young man with no book publishing experience (I was not only Richard's youngest signing, but he only signs 2-3 authors per year). Well, long story short, despite the merits of this book, it was rejected by about seven major publishers, and those are the publishers with which Richard deals, so eventually the book fell back to me, the agency contract having ended, and of course my spirits were pretty crushed over the whole thing. Every book you read tells you that finding an agent is actually harder than finding a publisher, and I thought once I signed with the best, I'd be looking at a nice advance, instant stardom, etc., all of these dreams an 18-year-old has that aren't quite founded in reality.

But, eventually, I published that book, years later, and it went on to moderate success for a small title, less sales than I would have liked, but consistently very good to great reviews. I finally am publishing my second book six years later. I started it a year ago. So the point I am trying to get at -- it took me five years to try again, after that first book. Now, I'm pinning my hopes on this new book, with much more realistic expectations, and I realize that for me it is more the joy of having a great finished product than the idea of tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars. But the point is, even when you do really good work, especially in film, it's still a TOUGH industry to get distribution or make your money back (writing a book, you don't have much overhead; making a film, you do), so if you aren't ready to do professional work proceed slowly. I think that's all Finner is really saying, although you two have been back and forth, at heart I don't think he's giving you bad advice or trying to discourage you.

 

[pat@hpnc.com]

Interesting replies and by the way I am dyslexic so I personaly think perfect spelling is overrated haha.

By the way one reason I am taking my step by step aproach is becouse I have learned painting, drawing, still photography etc. And making movies just like them will have a learning curve. Any one who thinks it does not is insane. Really the best you can hope for is your early works to look like they were made by a very talented amature becouse thats what you are.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Not to get dragged into this, but to be clear, I only questioned the proposed 40 minute length -- the archives and film academies only consider 40 minutes to be a feature because of the Silent Era features of that length. Most distributors consider something twice that length to be a feature, so just check with the most likely distributors of what you will be making as to their requirements. If this is for broadcast on a Christian TV network, they may prefer something that fits into a hour time slot, so you may be right to aim for 40 minutes. I'd look for something similar, of a similar length, as an example.

As others have pointed out, there's a market for Christian-themed product, so best of luck in that area.

 

[Joel Kaye]

But as far as pacing etc it could be a complete disaster

In the end, the story and the emotions are going to matter a lot more than a cool look. (a cool look is nice though).

My vote would be to write a 5 minute short and complete that first. Do a one or two day shoot and then go all the way through post with it to make sure you've got EVERYTHING figured out. It can even be one scene out of the 40 minute movie.

The point is, if you can't make a high quality entertaining 5 minutes don't waste your time trying to make 40. You're not there yet.

And 40 is a really weird length -- unless you're making it to be shown in a predetermined place and you don't care if anyone else sees it beyond that. I'm a convert to 3-5 minutes. iPhone, YouTube and festival ready. Or do a series of 8 5 minute shows - like a TV series and see if you can get a following.