best ingest into FCP for feature

[Ryan Bell]

Hey guys,

Just a quick question. About to start work on a feature and I was just wondering what people thought would be the best ingesting option for a feature workflow. All the files are going to be edited in final cut, exported to colour for grading and then exported back out of colour for either finish on film or DVD. Now my question is, which of the following options do you think best suites workflows for feature:

1. Drop proxies straight onto the timeline and start cutting straight away, export EDL to colour, grade and then export back
2: Ingest footage into final cut through L and T plugin, edit and finish in colour
3: Transcode footage in RedRushes to Proress HQ, edit in final cut pro, relink the edits with Recode RAW footage and then grade in colour.

We are still a few weeks away even from our initial testing period, so i'm just trying to way up my option. We are wanting to do as much as possible in house and on a budget too! Im hoping the workflow route will become alot clearer once we take delivery of our RED and editing machines and start testing,testing and more testing!!

 

[Michael Cioni]

Ryan,
As you have pointed out, there is more than one way to skin a cat.
I've done around 125 Red jobs, here are some of my opinions in dealing with Red in all of these workflows.

1. Proxy editing is the least stable offline editing technique. I've done it as have many others, but CPU performance is poor. Some other cons:
-You have to keep all the R3D source files online (multiple TBs)
-Multicam performance is very poor running concurrent streams of R3D
-Processing/rendering files for transitions, temp grades, text or DVD/MPG outputs is very slow.
-If you have 4k, 3k and 2k media the raster files in the sequences will vary

2. Log and Transfer is a tool that works great and is fairly reliable. Some cons:
-Because it is coupled into FCP, it is not multi-core aware and therefore cannot multithread the transcode across more processors. The result is slower transcodes because it only handles one clip at a time.
-You cannot add mattes or window burns to clips
-You have very limited variables when choosing a compression variables
-You can't use Final Cut when you're importing
-You cannot control clip-specific aspect ratios/raster sizes upon import

3. Red Rushes is the ideal and most popular workflow for dailies creating
-It allows you to create window burn and mattes
-It is multi-threaded and can do multiple clips simultaneously
-It can be done without an FCP license (you could spread transcoding across other machines)
-You can control your compressor flavors much better (and debayer qualities)
One con is some of the red aspect ratios (like 2:1) the scaler results change from 4k, 3, and 2k. So you have to separate those clips out prior to a batch process.

As far as finishing workflow, I have done over 30 DIs on Apple Color/Silicon Imaging Final Touch. The round-trip workflow with these tools require a lot of attention. The best part about this workflow is you DO have the ability to match back to R3Ds, but the honest truth is this workflow is fairly unstable, especially in long form projects with transitions, speed effects, titles, multi layers, etc.
Testing is a great way to get acclimated to these workflows, especially on your own gear. One thing to consider when using Apple Color is the ability to color correct on Apple color is contingent on the monitor in which you are viewing on, the expected output specs you plan on rendering to (RGB vs YUV, 64-940 vs 0-1023) and the requirement of a color console for the grade itself.
I'm a boutique DI facility and Color is an amazing tool, but it's true depth can only be tapped with the proper peripheral hardware, ample patience and storage space in rendering these files and an experienced artist. -Not to rain on the parade, but it's because of these issues that PlasterCITY eventually moved off of Color to perform more efficient grading in Quantel Pablo.

Overall, my advice to you is to test. But 75% of my clientele use Red Rushes to create dailies as Prores SQ (SQ runs about 25GBs per hour whereas HQ runs 85GBs per hour). Then they typically have post houses like us do the conform to 2K Raw (which in higher end systems can be done automatically in a matter of hours) and then the grade is done uncompressed on a real-time grading system. But with the right setup, scopes, monitoring, conformist and time, Color can get the job done looking great.

Hopefully this is helpful. I know it's a lot of opinions and I recognize the fact that others have done this on Color with Proxy movies (that's how I do my own projects BTW). However I am coming from a place in which I respect the need to do as much on your side of the fence to save money, while offering a solution to independents that will afford them the best DI quality and execute it in a fraction of the time that Apple Color can.
Hope this helps.
best,
michael

Michael Cioni
PlasterCITY Digital Post
www.plastercity.com

 

[M Most]

But 75% of my clientele use Red Rushes to create dailies as Prores SQ (SQ runs about 25GBs per hour whereas HQ runs 85GBs per hour).

Michael makes some good points here. My experience is very similar to his, and my conclusions are pretty similar as well, particularly when you're talking about feature work. One thing to point out, though: ProRes 422 is 25GB per hour at 1280x720, not 1920x1080. I would say, however, that 1280x720 is a very good format for "HD offline", so there's certainly nothing wrong with using that as a working number.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Michael has provided a pretty accurate account of FCP workflow. The thing to keep in mind is things are changing constantly. Each camera build changes things, as does each iteration of software. There are a lot of variables at play. I have found Clipfinder to be a really good solution for organizing and rendering footage, and it has the ability to batch export 4K and 2K while maintaining 1/2 Res High for both file types. That way your 2K files aren't getting the short end of the stick.

I have yet to find a solution that is perfect, but the one that comes the closest is exporting to QT ProRes or uncompressed and never looking back. But often times you want to go back to R3Ds to make adjustments so you inevitably do some conforming. That's when there are usually a few bumps in the road. But you can make it work.

The larger facilities have tools in place to allow them to work faster and more reliably. On the lower end, there are some growing pains, but the cost to do it is much less. There are always tradeoffs. Here is where I would like to see the FCP workflow go.

Log and Transfer that is RSX aware
L+T multicore aware
Real-Time native playback
Speed changes and effects compatible with Color
Red Room more stable in Color
Better control over aspect ratios/scaling
Get rid of the gamma problems once and for all

Essentially, I'd like to see FCP become truly Red aware (4K, 10 bit RGB, etc). I'd like to see tight integration between FCP, Motion, and Color. They should be streamlined to do what they do best, there should be exceptional media management that allows you to work seamlessly between all the apps in FCP studio, and overall better stability and reliability throughout the suite of apps. They should be optimized to take advantage of the processing and GPU available in higher end machines.

In other words, FCP needs to take the next step and keep pace with all of the new technology on the horizon.

 

[Frank Weeks]

O

One thing to consider when using Apple Color is the ability to color correct on Apple color is contingent on the monitor in which you are viewing on

This had been discussed on other threads Michael but what monitor would you recommend under 10k? Under 5k?
BTW, enjoyed your work at NAB demonstrating Red workflow last year. You and Kevin did a great job.

Agree with the Red rushes workflow.

 

[KevinStanley]

I agree with Michael, his points are valid. You can definitely get away with picking selects, transcoding and never looking back, but that's what my EX3 is for , I like the "gradability" of the Red raw files and like to tweak in Color. I am happy to edit with the reference files for short form as it seems to do well in small doses (and i have come to terms with the gamma shift/color issues). For the features I'm working on I'm planning to transcode everything to 720p for offline, keep all my effects and time remapping on separate layers (for reference), then media manage back to proxies and export my EDL for import to Color. Of course we're going to have some work arounds, but for the price point and finish quality I'm willing to jump thru a hoop or two.

Kevin

 

[Michael Cioni]

Monitoring Mini Test

Monitoring Mini Test

Frank,
Thanks for coming to NAB last year. It was a privilege to be there with Red & Kevin.
With regard to the question that has no easy answer...ideal monitoring solutions.

We recently purchased a 2nd Pablo for our facility and thus needed to invest in a new monitor. Our engineering team headed by CTO Steve Beres, thought it would be interesting to test some of the industry's top monitors (larger than 22") in a sort of "in-house-mini-shoot-out." But his idea was to do it blind, in the dark and include everyone from colorists to DPs as well as impartial opinions like our vault staff, accounting, etc.

Steve and his team spent the better part of day calibrating each and every monitor to Rec709 with dead accuracy. He handed out 7-point evaluation forms and blanketed 6 displays so no one knew what they were evaluating. One at a time, the set of high, mid and low-end displays were blindly evaluated with price points that ranged from $3,000 to $26,000. The results were nearly unanimous and very surprising.
Our result averages are below.

In the end, it was that the new German monitor, Tamuz, that won our test hands down. Really amazing pictures and affordable at around 10K.
The HP was impressive and even scored high, but it is just horrible when it comes to brightness and black point. It is just way to bright for any form of accurate color correction. But take a look at a Series 11 Panasonic Plasma. It is an amazing monitor for the price.

 

[Uli Plank]

Surprising indeed! Thanks for publishing this.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

I agree with Michael, his points are valid. You can definitely get away with picking selects, transcoding and never looking back, but that's what my EX3 is for , I like the "gradability" of the Red raw files and like to tweak in Color. I am happy to edit with the reference files for short form as it seems to do well in small doses (and i have come to terms with the gamma shift/color issues). For the features I'm working on I'm planning to transcode everything to 720p for offline, keep all my effects and time remapping on separate layers (for reference), then media manage back to proxies and export my EDL for import to Color. Of course we're going to have some work arounds, but for the price point and finish quality I'm willing to jump thru a hoop or two.

Kevin

When I said "perfect", a better way to put it would have been "most reliable", in other words, less hoops to jump through. But it's not my ideal way to work either. I would much prefer to work with a proxy/downrezzed offline file and then be color correcting on the R3Ds. I just used the Native workflow for the 72 Hour 4K Challenge, and although there were hoops to jump through for sure, being able to tap into the R3Ds directly in Color and then exporting an uncompressed sequence back to FCP was really cool. It just needs refinement so that there aren't so many workarounds.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Frank,
Thanks for coming to NAB last year. It was a privilege to be there with Red & Kevin.
With regard to the question that has no easy answer...ideal monitoring solutions.

We recently purchased a 2nd Pablo for our facility and thus needed to invest in a new monitor. Our engineering team headed by CTO Steve Beres, thought it would be interesting to test some of the industry's top monitors (larger than 22") in a sort of "in-house-mini-shoot-out." But his idea was to do it blind, in the dark and include everyone from colorists to DPs as well as impartial opinions like our vault staff, accounting, etc.

Steve and his team spent the better part of day calibrating each and every monitor to Rec709 with dead accuracy. He handed out 7-point evaluation forms and blanketed 6 displays so no one knew what they were evaluating. One at a time, the set of high, mid and low-end displays were blindly evaluated with price points that ranged from $3,000 to $26,000. The results were nearly unanimous and very surprising.
Our result averages are below.

In the end, it was that the new German monitor, Tamuz, that won our test hands down. Really amazing pictures and affordable at around 10K.
The HP was impressive and even scored high, but it is just horrible when it comes to brightness and black point. It is just way to bright for any form of accurate color correction. But take a look at a Series 11 Panasonic Plasma. It is an amazing monitor for the price.

So, you went with the Tamuz? Which model did you get? Are you running everything dual-link?

Thanks for the test results!

 

[M Most]

In the end, it was that the new German monitor, Tamuz, that won our test hands down. Really amazing pictures and affordable at around 10K.
The HP was impressive and even scored high, but it is just horrible when it comes to brightness and black point. It is just way to bright for any form of accurate color correction. But take a look at a Series 11 Panasonic Plasma. It is an amazing monitor for the price.

As we both know (but a lot of other people don't always seem to), with monitors it's not about "looking good," it's about accuracy - how close the display comes to the values required by a standard, in this case, Rec709 and accepted "normals" for brightness and contrast, as displayed for years by CRT's. I haven't seen the Tamuz (my guess is few people have), but I'm going to try and take a look at one. I agree with you on the Dreamcolor, but as I've stated in another thread, it seems to have been designed with the notion of having more ambient light in the viewing environment than is typically the norm in a color correction environment. I did notice that you didn't include a CRT in the test - not surprising given the lack of manufacturing support, but I'm wondering if you had one in the room for comparison purposes? Or did you just not want to go there given that it likely wasn't a purchase option?

So, did you wind up buying the Tamuz? And how has that worked out so far?

 

[Michael Cioni]

Mike-
Yes, we intentionally did not test a CRT for the very reason you mentioned. We're moving in a direction where we not only need to acclimate to not having manufacturing support for CRTs, but that all our work is showing up to consumer homes on LCD and Plasma screens anyway. HP is an amazing monitor and true 10bit makes a difference, but in a windowless room where the lights are always off, its brightness will surely affect your own eye calibration and inevitably affect the grade. But this monitor is an ideal way to work on set. With a bright sun and your back, the HP puts out so much brightness that you probably won't need a hood to monitor in video village. It also has good characteristics for 3D animation monitoring during the pre-grades and compositing because it can reach into ares of color and saturation that cannot be generated in real life.

The Tamuz is great. They make a 23" and a 30." It has a piece of glass over the display and has a very unique A-Frame swivel hinge mount. It handles 60i and PsF very well we can grade in 444 with a dual-link loop through.
michael

Michael Cioni
Founder, PlasterCITY Digital Post
www.plastercity.com

 

[M Most]

The Tamuz is great. They make a 23" and a 30." It has a piece of glass over the display and has a very unique A-Frame swivel hinge mount. It handles 60i and PsF very well we can grade in 444 with a dual-link loop through.

One more question: Any issues with viewing angle?

 

[Michael Cioni]

The viewing angle of the Tamuz is really great. Similar to the Cinetal angle. That, plus the actual glass on the monitor gives it more of a CRT feel than the Cinetal.

 

[KevinStanley]

Nice work guys, very good info!

Kevin

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Michael, thank you for posting the results! Unfortunately the Tamuz is well beyond out budget.

When you say to look at the Panasonic 11 series... what exactly do you mean by that. It is only a TV and you guys didn't rate it. I don't know enough understand what I should make out from that comment. Would you please explain?

One more thing... about the HP Dream color... I am worried about the blacks, and that's not gonna change, but in a room with windows such as mine I suppose it might do decent on the colors... and on set which is also something we'll need it for. I can't really consider it if the black are going to be off though... I would put in a pile of work before I got to see the footage on a pro colorist's setup and I wouldn't want to realize we would need to spend all of our super limited budget just fixing the blacks...

 

[Steve MacMillan]

Michael makes some good points here. My experience is very similar to his, and my conclusions are pretty similar as well, particularly when you're talking about feature work. One thing to point out, though: ProRes 422 is 25GB per hour at 1280x720, not 1920x1080. I would say, however, that 1280x720 is a very good format for "HD offline", so there's certainly nothing wrong with using that as a working number.

I like the idea of 1280x720 23.98 for HD offline, but my Panasonic 26 monitor will not display it. Make sure you don't have monitoring headaches.

STeve

 

[Michael Cioni]

Roberto-
Sorry for not clarifying. We did not test the 50" Panasonic against the rest because it is not an formal color grading LCD display. However, we do know that as a Plasma, it is unmatched. We did test it but on slightly different levels because it doesn't compare to color grading monitors like the Tamuz.
Series 11 is essentially the "eleventh generation" of Panasonic Plasmas. It has the HDSDI option and engineering menus which allow for very close calibration to an LCD color accurate display. Some facilities actually use these as client monitors in a grading bay that matches the primary display. It handles 23.98, is square 1920x1080 and has 2 SDI inputs. They are really amazing displays.
michael

Michael Cioni
Founder, PlasterCITY Digital Post
www.plastercity.com

 

[M Most]

I like the idea of 1280x720 23.98 for HD offline, but my Panasonic 26 monitor will not display it.

It will if you send it to the monitor as 720p/60 (i.e., 59.94), which almost all HD-SDI cards can do. 720p/24 (i.e., 23.98) is not a video format, it is a data format only. No video monitor will display it, only computer monitors. The only 720p video formats are 720p/60 and 720p/50. Conversion of 720p/24 to 720p/60 is done on the fly by nearly all HD capable AJA and Blackmagic cards, including the very economical Blackmagic Intensity.

 

[M Most]

Roberto-
Some facilities actually use these as client monitors in a grading bay that matches the primary display.

And some actually use for as the grading monitor. And although I personally wouldn't recommend that at this point in time, Price Pethel has used plasmas for this purpose for a number of years now, both when he was with Lowry and since. And with proper scopes available to confirm what one is looking at, I'm not necessarily going to say he's completely wrong.