Best HD camera for untrained scientists?

[paulherrin]

yeah... I didn't think at all about focusing issues.

If these are going to be mainly tripod, or somewhat stationary shots... something like a 7D may be your best bet.

But as others have said, if they're going to be running around like Blair Witch, you're going to get absolutely the worst footage anyones ever seen, and you'd be better off with a camera phone.

So it really depends what's going on, what they'll be doing... etc. You need to think about that.

As far as training them on the camera, David made some good points. Do the best you can at showing them how to work it, how to troubleshoot, etc. Do some shooting with them, then send them out to take footage of whatever, even if it's at home with their family. Then take a look at it and critique it.

I would also try to cover simple things like basic lighting, sound, and composition of shots. Teach them to think creatively.

Maybe they can pick up some of those small battery powered LED lights if they need it in really low-light situations, or use high-power flashlights, or dragon's breath, or whatever they find to use.

 

[Neil W. Smith]

RED/Canon Intercut footage ...

RED/Canon Intercut footage ...

The project is for HD delivery to some very particular networks, so things like the Flip camera are out. I'm not sold on cameras that shoot h264 until someone can show me something that looks almost broadcast quality coming from one.

Brent,

You raise an important question at this stage of the game .... until Scarlet gets here we've been looking at alternative HD cameras to intercut with RED .... have to say that the Canon EOS 7D has really surprised us with how well it intercuts with well shot RED ... especially when both are shot at 23.98.

We did a RED/5D/7D Intercut test a few months ago and have shown the demo reel to many trained DPs and no one is able to get every shot 100% right ... here's the file on Vimeo:

http://vimeo.com/7563238

The other cool thing about the 7D is it takes great still photos which can always be cut in with the video, plus the form factor is very familiar to anyone who has shot a DSLR .... even crazy scientists ... find one of them that knows how to shoot stills and you'll be fine.

If the scientists are working in the snow you might want to experiment with variable polarizing filters ... the RED has way more latitude than the Canons but if they boys expose correctly, the 7D has an amazing sweet spot.

Also, give them a Zoom H4n hand-held recorder .... audio on a documentary is in someways more important than video.

If you go for the EOS 7D, Philip Bloom has a great training DVD that will take them quickly through how to tweak the camera to shoot good video .... apparently a certain George ordered one ;-) .... check out Philip's website:

http://philipbloom.co.uk/

Also, make sure the in-cameras settings are changed so it shoots a much more flat image .... it looks bad on playback but gives you more latitude to grade in post and match the RED ONE footage.

Philip is also a judge on a Can-Do Film Festival .... if you want to submit some of your 7D shot footage you could win a cool prize.

If you're ever down in LA, pop in and see us ... our RAWworks company specializes in grading and finishing RED and Canon HD projects.

All the best,
Neil

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

Should I get a 7D and train them how to make the video look good, or send something idiot-proof but lower quality?

definitely idiot-proof - EX1 or better still, V1U. These are very decent broadcast cameras. I would actually go with a tape-based workflow (V1U), because it will make it easier on the scientists to simply change out tapes instead of fussing with cards, and you won't have to be concerned with data mismanagement. Also, the onboard mic will do fine with ambient sound, and if you need other sound, interviews or whatever, teach them how to work a wireless mic and lav set-up and also a wireless shotgun and buttplug with a portable mic stand that can be placed close to the sound source without the need for a boom or separate operator.

I like this pairing:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/154666-REG/K_M_23110_500_01_Table_Top_Tripod_Microphone.html

and

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...hnica_AT8407_AT8407_Universal_Microphone.html

also get them one of those micro litepanels, if you think they will be shooting in low light.

I think 7D would be a mistake.

Teach them to stabilize their shots, and that will be half your battle. If the tripod is too cumbersome or gets in the way, insist that they mount on a 561B monopod (the one with feet) or beanbag or something.

Teach them how to monitor their audio...your average non-shooter does not even know what "clipping" means - we forget how much we know.

Let them use the auto-focus. Most of these systems are very good these days, in these prosumer cameras and are used by professionals in all kinds of fast environments, especially sports, for broadcast work.

Most of all - get a good editor! I always tell the people that I teach locally that "there is no such thing as bad footage, only bad editors" - which is very true in the documentary world - a good documentary editor knows how to turn less-than-perfect footage into an effect that sells the story.

 

[John Nguyen]

Hey, Brent. What kind of expedition is this? It might give a little more idea as to how rugged the camera has to be and how little time you'd have to set up to get "proper" shots. And how much money do you have available for gear?

In my head I was imagining more extreme conditions and if your have a large sized team I would suggest a couple of prosumer camcorders so you can just plain get the footage after training the team in basic composition. Preferably they would have manual mode as an option for those occasions when you actually have time to properly set up.

And then maybe a 7D for whomever is the most advanced in term of shooting. There are a lot of drawbacks with the 7D for documentary work that I would be wary of even as someone who's worked with cameras of all different kinds of form factors and internals.

And I agree very much with the statement about a separate audio recorder to ensure you get audio. We see firehosing all the time on television but having a mic right on the subject still made it so we could understand Steve Irwin's narration as he was running through a swamp full of gators or what have you.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

I have to say that for budget film making of any sort right now I am a huge fan of the Canon 7D.

That said, I'd recommend that you send them out with this instead:

Panasonic AG-HMC40

Why?

1) Autofocus
2) Easy use of pro audio mics
3) low cost high capacity media
4) solid state
5) Autofocus

As far as mics go I'd send them out with a phantom powered stereo shotgun and a shock mount.

These little cameras produce darn good images. They aren't REDs, they aren't even 7Ds, but the pictures are good.

The cost of media is essential to consider. You get about 101 minutes on a 16GB SDHC card at the highest quality level. That's about $45 per card (often cheaper!) That's cheap enough to send them out with dozens of cards.

 

[paulherrin]

^^

you know what... I concur.

I think you've got a good point, especially about the audio, and that's an extremely good price for what you're getting.

This camera seems to = peace of mind

I'd probably look at the Audio Technica 875 shotgun ($200) or the Oktava MK-012 ($250-$350). I think either of these will give you some great audio at a bargain price, but for a camera-mounted mic in these situations, I'd probably go with the AT.

 

[John Hunt]

I second Meryem - V1U, monopod, tripod, beanbag, autofocus if that's safest and a plan for great sound...this is the most practical way to get footage that will be acceptable quality for broadcast with a very easy to operate camera system for a non-pro. I'm sure they're smart enough to handle most any camera, but it's quite likely they will be distracted with activities other than shooting - so keeping the whole system relatively simple and providing laminated checklists and instructions will ensure you will net the maximum amount of usable footage.

You might consider asking one scientist to handle video only and another to look after sound - and they could check each other's work.

definitely idiot-proof - EX1 or better still, V1U. These are very decent broadcast cameras. I would actually go with a tape-based workflow (V1U), because it will make it easier on the scientists to simply change out tapes instead of fussing with cards,
I think 7D would be a mistake.

Teach them to stabilize their shots, and that will be half your battle. If the tripod is too cumbersome or gets in the way, insist that they mount on a 561B monopod (the one with feet) or beanbag or something.

Teach them how to monitor their audio...your average non-shooter does not even know what "clipping" means - we forget how much we know.

Let them use the auto-focus. Most of these systems are very good these days, in these prosumer cameras and are used by professionals in all kinds of fast environments, especially sports, for broadcast work.

Most of all - get a good editor! I always tell the people that I teach locally that "there is no such thing as bad footage, only bad editors" - which is very true in the documentary world - a good documentary editor knows how to turn less-than-perfect footage into an effect that sells the story.

 

[Dave Blackham]

yeah... I didn't think at all about focusing issues.

If these are going to be mainly tripod, or somewhat stationary shots... something like a 7D may be your best bet.

But as others have said, if they're going to be running around like Blair Witch, you're going to get absolutely the worst footage anyones ever seen, and you'd be better off with a camera phone.

So it really depends what's going on, what they'll be doing... etc. You need to think about that.

As far as training them on the camera, David made some good points. Do the best you can at showing them how to work it, how to troubleshoot, etc. Do some shooting with them, then send them out to take footage of whatever, even if it's at home with their family. Then take a look at it and critique it.

I would also try to cover simple things like basic lighting, sound, and composition of shots. Teach them to think creatively.

Maybe they can pick up some of those small battery powered LED lights if they need it in really low-light situations, or use high-power flashlights, or dragon's breath, or whatever they find to use.

Consider Sony PMW EX1 or if you need it to be palmcorder size then Canon Legria S11. Neither are high end broadcast cameras per say but for their size they produce good pictures.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

DSLR would be a horrible mistake, especially if giving it to someone who doesn't shoot for a living. If the budget allows it go with EX1.

If they are bright-enough to be scientists, you'd think they are bright-enough to be trained to use a basic video camera.

Makes sense but it's not that simple. I had to explain basics a bunch of times to very bright people, but when they had to do their work which is multitasking by itself and think of camera work which is also multitasking by itself, it usually ended up with - bad footage.

People will prioritize to do their job, and won't worry about the footage 100%, not even 60%. When changing shots it will be either under or over exposed, or too quiet or sound clipping, or out of the shot, or too shaky, or incomplete shot, or forgetting to press "stop" or "rec", or anything else that can go wrong. Remembering to take care of all aspects of camera work takes a certain time (I think we all can relate) and mistakes in this case are unavoidable, it's only a matter of choosing the tolerable types of mistakes.

I'd tape a small "don't forget" list on the camera and show them types of shots and what percentage of which types I need.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Should I get a 7D and train them how to make the video look good, or send something idiot-proof but lower quality?

I would appreciate everyone's advice.

Brent: I would send them with 2 cameras - a 7D - it shoots great stills and good video but is a little harder to use in video mode for some things. 2nd camera would be a JVC GY-HM100U very compact, handycam size camera but it is a true 1080P 3 chip video camcorder with none of the aliasing issues of a DSLR and has the normal prostyle gain, white balance etc and XLR audio inputs, but also full and partial auto modes that makes it very easy for inexperienced users. JVC licensed the HDCAM codec so shoots the same 35MBPS as the EX-1 EX3 and actually cuts very well with those cameras.

JVC is about $3500 7D is $1899 with the 28-135 image stabilised lens which is a pretty decent lens. Obviously lots of other lens choices depending on your specific needs.

Both cameras, accessories and extra lenses for the 7D would fit in a small carry on bag or backpack.

 

[Brent J. Craig]

This is all excellent advice and covers many things I wouldn't have thought of. I appreciate it!

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

People will prioritize to do their job, and won't worry about the footage 100%, not even 60%.

This is a very good assessment, which is why 7D seems like a mistake. It's not easy to monitor focus. And things appear in focus in those little monitors that are not, but they/you will not be able to see that until it is reviewed in a larger monitor, after it is too late. Also, most of the prosumer cams with 20x zooms will give your shooters a pretty set of choices that is easy to re-frame without the lens changes. In your best case scenario, you're talking about carrying at least a 24-70mm and a 70-200mm, possibly even a 16-35mm, which means cleaning the lens each time it is changed out and exposing the sensor each time you change a lens. A 20x zoom will approximate most of this range without all of the fussing.

Also, think how much energy we spend bomb-proofing our data in tapeless workflows - they will not have time or a dedicated person to do that, which is why, in this case, tape is a good idea. If they copy their cards to hard drives and don't back it up, and you have a drive failure, then the crucial expedition footage is hosed.

If you add things like lens changes, sensor cleaning, having to carry along hard drives (unless you purchase sufficient cards for the trip - but tape is much cheaper and still portable, and the V1U will give you 24p), then you increase the time spent fussing. The bottom line is, you want them to be shooting, not fussing.

Also, if you spend some time with the scientists in advance, you're likely to find "the shooter" in advance - the guy who will be most likely and willing to pick up the camera and document the action. In a group of ten people, there's one in every bunch. The closet creative. Find that guy or guys beforehand. Focus your efforts on training him in the finer points, he will be inherently meticulous and have a decent eye.

 

[Michael Schrengohst]

I have to say that for budget film making of any sort right now I am a huge fan of the Canon 7D.

That said, I'd recommend that you send them out with this instead:

Panasonic AG-HMC40

Why?

1) Autofocus
2) Easy use of pro audio mics
3) low cost high capacity media
4) solid state
5) Autofocus

As far as mics go I'd send them out with a phantom powered stereo shotgun and a shock mount.

These little cameras produce darn good images. They aren't REDs, they aren't even 7Ds, but the pictures are good.

The cost of media is essential to consider. You get about 101 minutes on a 16GB SDHC card at the highest quality level. That's about $45 per card (often cheaper!) That's cheap enough to send them out with dozens of cards.

This is the camera I have recommended to many clients. It makes decent footage. Shoots on SD cards. The BIGGEST problem any beginner has is producing decent audio. I have training sessions with clients and go over & over the placing of lav mics on interview subjects. Most of the time the client flat out forgets to even use the lav mics. They have forgot to plug them in - they forget to monitor with the headphones....on and on. They produce decent visuals with no problems - but if the audio is crap or non-existence then it just turns into a futile exercise.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Also, think how much energy we spend bomb-proofing our data in tapeless workflows - they will not have time or a dedicated person to do that, which is why, in this case, tape is a good idea. If they copy their cards to hard drives and don't back it up, and you have a drive failure, then the crucial expedition footage is hosed.

regarding tape, 32 gig class 6 SD cards are about $109 which is 5 to 6 hours of footage at HDV tape quality. (2 to 3 hours at AVCHD much better quality) so only 3 to 4 times as expensive even if you only used them once. And maybe even more importantly you can fit about 20 of them in the same space and weight as an HDV tape AND they are impervious to many environmental things that would damage tape.

 

[Roger Crouse]

Say you were working on a documentary, shooting on Red (obviously), and needed to send an inexpensive B-camera along with some scientists on an expedition where adding a real cameraman is completely out of the question. What would you send with them??? If the fixed lens Scarlets were out the choice would be an absolute no-brainer!

Would it be some sort of DSLR that happens to shoot video? Something pro-sumer that shoots to flash cards?

The project is for HD delivery to some very particular networks, so things like the Flip camera are out. I'm not sold on cameras that shoot h264 until someone can show me something that looks almost broadcast quality coming from one.

Should I get a 7D and train them how to make the video look good, or send something idiot-proof but lower quality?

I would appreciate everyone's advice.

Rather than send a camera, maybe send a volunteer student in film school or an intern in a production house with a healthy dosage of your own training and his borrowed/owned Canon/Red/Other. He gets real world experience. You get good usable footage.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

Actually there have been several posts suggesting a camera operator. So, I am asking why you aren't sending a camera operator?

If the network is actually that finicky, then they should definitely be specifying a solid camera with a qualified operator. Usually those places plan an appropriate budget for operators, insurance and gear. So, why isn't it an option?

There are very few, if any, places that you can't send a camera operator but you can send a scientist.

The moon, and space in general, comes to mind. For everything else I refer you to combat camera. The risks to the operator are rarely so high as they are to the men and women of combat camera- both in and out of uniform.

They should either pony up the cash to get an operator out there, or be willing to accept drastically reduced quality as a result of lower priced cameras and unqualified operators.

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

regarding tape, 32 gig class 6 SD cards are about $109 which is 5 to 6 hours of footage at HDV tape quality. (2 to 3 hours at AVCHD much better quality) so only 3 to 4 times as expensive even if you only used them once. And maybe even more importantly you can fit about 20 of them in the same space and weight as an HDV tape AND they are impervious to many environmental things that would damage tape.

I suppose I'd also specify SSD RAID enclosures for backup.

So, you shoot the SDHC cards, then write protect them when they come out of the camera.

When you have time you ingest them to an SSD array. Store the SDHC cards. So, there are two copies.

You can even send the SDHC cards back to the studio while the camera and crew stays in the field.

 

[Joe G.]

Hedge your bets. Send 2 cams with 2 scientists. Give them both a 1 day training and a stabilizer of some sort.

 

[morgan_moore]

If you read (and im sure you and others have) Everest Books etcetera one often finds that the explorers (scientists) are excellent camera operators, in fact the only book you read of that nature had at least a competent writer as part of the team - by definition

Because they understand that profile and coverage of their endeavors means high profile, funding and more trips adventures and funding in the future

If you can win the 'hearts and minds' of one or two of the team into this way of thinking they will become obsessed with camera, lap up any training and perform well with it

If they dont care and footage aquisition is another tedium to add to their list of tasks they will fail

Choice of kit may therefore not be too important to the results you get

S

 

[paulherrin]

another thing to think about is power.

will they have the ability to charge batteries in the field, or are you going to have to send 20 charged batteries with them. that may make a big difference in which camera you use - based on battery performance.

in a cold environment, they need to place very special attention on keeping those boys warm. i usually keep them as close as i can to my body in a pocket or something. it's amazing how fast those puppies will drain when they get chilly.