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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Best brand for ND filters: Tiffen, Formatt or Schneider?

Alrighty gents, I spent all day on Friday as part of Red Day and got a chance to see what filters they were using, talk to Jim a bunch, etc.

First off, they seem to be using Formatt 4x5.65 filters. I played with Hollywood and Acupulco and Hollywood had an MB-20 with a .6 and a 1.2 sitting next to it.

An important question I got straightened out is that while you can "adjust ISO" in-camera, it is a completely non-sensor altering act. I.e., you aren't really changing anything! Red's sensor sensitivity is what is it, somewhere around either 320 or 500 ISO in RAW. By adjusting the ISO you are simply adjusting how you are viewing the images, and aren't actually changing a dang thing about how the images are created. This is nice in that if on set you think you need 1000ISO but then in post realize that 500ISO looks better, you didn't actually crank it to 1000ISO on set, you were just looking at it like that. The problem on the bottom side of this is that if you crank it to 100 ISO, you aren't actually lowering the camera's sensitivity, you are just seeing what it would look like if you pulled it in post.

So...preserving the highlights is very critical. My plan now it to acquire the Formatt HD ND 1.2 and then get a Circ Pol later (when I get Viewfactor's matte box).
 
Shawn Nelson said:
So...preserving the highlights is very critical. My plan now it to acquire the Formatt HD ND 1.2 and then get a Circ Pol later (when I get Viewfactor's matte box).
Click to expand...

Thanks for the update. I could see a .3, .6, 1.2 and polarizer combo. I think stacking filters is going to be a reality unless someone can find a source for higher ND filters.
 
You're right about the ISO. This change will be store in metadata though and will influence the post processing parameters (you can change / reset / override, of course).
 
Stephen Williams said:
Hi Shawn,

You use different filters when stacking eg Pol+ND+enhancer.

Every extra sheet of glass has 2 sides for reflections, extra glass equals lower quality.

I try to avoid filters when back lit eg sunset, otherwise you may get several suns in the frame. Some matte boxes allow you to angle the filter to prevent the problem.

Stephen
Click to expand...

Hi Stephen,

I was thinking about this filter stuff while sitting on the shore of a lake last week and what you say about stacking filters is spot on. And it's not just the internal reflections and the possibility of resoulution dergrading (depending on the overall optical quality of the filter) but the fact that every uncoated surface in contact with air results in appx. three percent light loss. Now I remember that some glass filters use to be available with anti reflection coatings (like on a camera lens) is this still true.

Chuck
 
Hi Chuck,

I know from tests with my DSLR that any filter in front of the lens is at a cost to resolution, it's not that obvious until you look for it, however it's there.

Stephen
 
With RED #8 I received the RED 18-50 zoom and RED 300 prime. The outside thread measurement of the lens hood of the 18-50 is 105mm, but the actual lens barrel inside of that, where you can screw filters on if you choose, is 72mm. If someone wants to buy screw-on 72mm filters to get them by for "run n' gun" situations where they don't want to use a matte box (or can't because of space constraints), then 72mm filters are widely available at any photography store.

The 300 prime has a gigantic diameter at the front end of the barrel - I haven't measured it, but I'd guess around 150mm. Fear not through! As I was figuring out possible filter options for the 300, I called Jarred Land and he tipped me off to a great feature of the lens: about 3" above the PL mount, on top of the lens, there is a small receptacle that pulls right out of the lens. It is designed for you to be able to screw filters into it and simply place the receptacle back in. The cool thing is that the thread diameter for that filter receptacle is only 43mm.

Screw-on filters in all sizes and types are easily available online or at your favorite photography store. If you're specifically after ND screw on filters, they're readily available in ratings of .2 all the way up to 3.0. I ordered several screw on ND filters in 72mm for the RED 18-50 and 43mm for the RED 300. I'll still use a matte box and drop in filters when the projects I'm working on call for that, but having a pouch of screw on filters for the lenses keeps the setup streamlined and light for the situations where that is needed.

Obviously you get what you pay for in filters, so if you're using screw on filters, you want to get the best available if you can afford it. But in a pinch or emergency even inexpensive screw on filters may help you out - especially if your project isn't headed for the big screen.
 
"there is a small receptacle that pulls right out of the lens"

when you add a rear filter does that throw off the focus ( marks) ??
 
donatello said:
"there is a small receptacle that pulls right out of the lens"

when you add a rear filter does that throw off the focus ( marks) ??
Click to expand...

I wouldn't think so. The filter receptacle is about 3" up the barrel from the PL mount. The 43mm ND filters that I ordered will be here tomorrow and I'll be testing them out in the 300 over the weekend. I'll see if there is any effect on focus marks when a filter is added.
 
I've used a lot of 300's and they all have a filter slot, but they all require a optical flat in them unless using another filter to maintain focus marks
 
Gibby said:
I wouldn't think so. The filter receptacle is about 3" up the barrel from the PL mount. The 43mm ND filters that I ordered will be here tomorrow and I'll be testing them out in the 300 over the weekend. I'll see if there is any effect on focus marks when a filter is added.
Click to expand...

Gibby,

Does the 300mm lens come with a filter in the rear carrier? Perhaps just a clear one. Depending where this rear filter falls in the optical path will determine if you always have to have some type of filter in there be it clear or otherwise. If it falls after all the optics within in the lens I would say that you would need one in the holderall the time.

Chuck
 
chuck colburn said:
Does the 300mm lens come with a filter in the rear carrier? Perhaps just a clear one. Depending where this rear filter falls in the optical path will determine if you always have to have some type of filter in there be it clear or otherwise. If it falls after all the optics within in the lens I would say that you would need one in the holderall the time.
Click to expand...

I just pulled the holder, and there is a clear optical glass piece in it with threads to screw in an additional filter (ND, etc.) if desired. The clear optical can be easily unscrewed from the holder. The holder is positioned behind (on the mount side) of all the optics, so I would guess you're right, at least the clear optical should remain in the holder at all times.

BTW - Max loaned me a Colcine Type B x2 Range Extender to use with the 300, so I'll test that out on an elephant seal colony up the coast from me this weekend. That will put me out to 600mm for that. :gun:
 
This might be a really stupid idea, but here goes anyway... Would it be possible to carefully put some Neutral Density window gel from a roll onto a clear glass square? You could layer the gel carefully to make sure there are no bubbles, and make your own ND filters without having to stack multiple pieces of glass in a mattebox. Could something like this work?
 
Jaime Vallés said:
This might be a really stupid idea, but here goes anyway... Would it be possible to carefully put some Neutral Density window gel from a roll onto a clear glass square? You could layer the gel carefully to make sure there are no bubbles, and make your own ND filters without having to stack multiple pieces of glass in a mattebox. Could something like this work?
Click to expand...

I think that stuff scratches pretty easily but it would be an interesting test. Should work, it's just a question of the optical quality.
 
Gibby said:
I just pulled the holder, and there is a clear optical glass piece in it with threads to screw in an additional filter (ND, etc.) if desired. The clear optical can be easily unscrewed from the holder. The holder is positioned behind (on the mount side) of all the optics, so I would guess you're right, at least the clear optical should remain in the holder at all times.

BTW - Max loaned me a Colcine Type B x2 Range Extender to use with the 300, so I'll test that out on an elephant seal colony up the coast from me this weekend. That will put me out to 600mm for that. :gun:
Click to expand...

Hi Gibby,

Where did you order the filters from if my ask?

What kind of stop loss are we looking at... almost two? Not familiar w/ the Colcine Type B x2... I have always used optex and century.

Another question... are able to get any decent fill w/ your big smile while shooting and what kind of drop off are we looking at.... in footcandles please?:bleh:
Foot_candle.jpg

I would love to see some of that footage of the elephant seal colony... Congratulations Steve.

Cheers--- Andrew
 
Gibby said:
I just pulled the holder, and there is a clear optical glass piece in it with threads to screw in an additional filter (ND, etc.) if desired. The clear optical can be easily unscrewed from the holder. The holder is positioned behind (on the mount side) of all the optics, so I would guess you're right, at least the clear optical should remain in the holder at all times.

BTW - Max loaned me a Colcine Type B x2 Range Extender to use with the 300, so I'll test that out on an elephant seal colony up the coast from me this weekend. That will put me out to 600mm for that. :gun:
Click to expand...

You might not want to stack filters (if they will even fit in the slot) as this will increase the length of the back focus of the camera. This is not a big deal on a long focal length lens as all it would do is make the lens hit infinity ever so slightly after the mark on the footage scale. And since your going to eyefocus a lens of that length anyways it's probally a mote point.

Extenders can be quite good, espically if they are designed for a particular optical configuration.
Most of the brands (Nikon, Canon, Contax etc.) offer different models depending which of their lenses you are planning on using.
Some offer models in varied magnifications such as; 1.4x 1.7x 2x etc.

For those who haven't used them, the1.4x looses about one stop the1.7 about one and one half stops and the 2x two stops. appx.
 
Andrew Benz said:
Hi Gibby,

Where did you order the filters from if my ask?

What kind of stop loss are we looking at... almost two? Not familiar w/ the Colcine Type B x2... I have always used optex and century.

Another question... are able to get any decent fill w/ your big smile while shooting and what kind of drop off are we looking at.... in footcandles please?:bleh:
Foot_candle.jpg

I would love to see some of that footage of the elephant seal colony... Congratulations Steve.

Cheers--- Andrew
Click to expand...

Hey Andrew,

I ordered the filters from B & H Photo in New York. Check their site menus and you can navigate down to all kinds of filters, sizes of them, cost ranges, types, etc.

As Chuck mentioned, it's a two stop loss when using the 2x extender. The 300 is 2.8, so that brings it up to 5.6 - very workable in natural light.

I've never used that specific type of extender (Colcine Type B), but it is built like a tank, about 20 years old, and the DP that loaned it to me is a lens expert (like Chuck), and says it has great glass. I'll see what I get with it.

I even have a big smile when I sleep nowdays! There's not enough hours in ths day - I want to be out there getting images all the time.

I'll let you know via PM where/when you can check out the elephant seal footage.
 
Great thread! I've been lurking around this forum off and on for about a year now and I've got to say it's 1000% more interesting now that you guys are starting to get the actual cameras to test with. A big Thanks to everyone who has provided the theoretical information up to now, but practical info like this is pure gold.
 
" be possible to carefully put some Neutral Density window gel from a roll onto a clear glass square?"

window gel is not optical clear .. kodak does make some gel ND filters for behind the lens
 
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