Be afraid. Be very afraid

[Alex Stolpakov]

Hrvoje Simic I like your opinion at least the way you see a set life. :iagree:
For anybody who doesn't understand, the most upsetting is not when AС misses, its when they don't get what you meant by your movement or staying still, not being in tune with you, or actors, or director and just staying mechanical--- something in focus but what?

 

[Satsuki Murashige]

I'm at the point where I won't buy any more lenses unless they have built-in auto-focus motors. It's just too useful not to have it.

I’m just curious, but do you put value into the unique look of lenses? There are so many manual focus only lenses, both stills and cine, that have unique character and can a make a huge difference in the final look of a project. Personally, I would hate to lose that creative choice. I shot a project recently on Cooke 5/i primes, choosing them over Sigma Cines which I used before for the same client. Made a huge difference in the final look.

But I’m open to hearing other perspectives. Maybe this is mainly a motion picture thing? I’ve worked alongside many commercial still photographers who only use modern autofocus lenses, and their images look great. But then, they usually have so much more control over the final image. As a cinematographer, I feel the need to bake in as much of my look in-camera as is practical, as I may not be involved in the color-grading session at all.

 

[Satsuki Murashige]

I have also often used autofocus EF zooms and primes when necessary for affordability, focal length reach, small size, and speed of use. Especially for solo operator documentary jobs. But it was always a compromise between getting the look right and just getting the shot. If I have a camera crew, in a narrative or commercial job where ‘getting the shot’ is not in question, I would always prioritize the look.

 

[Jeffery Anderson]

Autofocus is for sure one of the first things that will make dsmc2 cameras feel old. I would use it almost all the time if I had it. It would also dictate what lenses I would use etc.

But I think ACs will not be without work but maybe they will be called focus programmers or such in the future. As I think the capabilities of AI-driven focus systems can and will go very deep for the professional cinema market. So there will still be the need for someone on set to be dedicated to picture focus.

Touchscreen driven finger point focus with smooth transitions when pointing at a new object etc. When such stuff becomes available then I think people will adopt it and ask for more.

it will only work with lenses with internal motors, which all high-end cinema lenses do not have

 

[Jeffery Anderson]

As a layer of information on a screen that could be useful but not actually driving focus. TBH depth information is more useful or tracking RFID tags in a scene.

I would agree with this -- give the 1st AC more tools to make their job easier, and keep the controls in their hands.

 

[David Rasberry]

I can’t think of the film at the moment, but there was a recent scene I watched where the dance between camera op, focus puller, and actors, was as fluid and organic as a well coreographed ballet. Complex, constantly moving, constantly shifting focal points of emphasis among actors.

It was seamless within the context of the scene, but left me as a shooter wondering how in hell they pulled it off. Blew me away.

Automation might ease some workloads, but nothing can replace refined collaboration among a team of highly skilled artists.

Many years ago I directed a short play with a couple of intensely emotional scenes. I struggled with getting real emotional intensity out of amateur actors. What finally worked was precisely coreographing every move, every step, every turn, every pause, every gesture in the blocking for each line in the script.
Perfecting the moves in rehearsal ultimately resulted in a natural expression of emotion from the actors. Emotion followed motion in this case where motion would follow emotion with more skilled actors.

 

[Jeffery Anderson]

I’m just curious, but do you put value into the unique look of lenses?

I wouldn't be surprised if they started making higher quality lenses with internal motors... just matters where the industry goes and if investors can make more money from independent films or if the super huge budgeted films stay the norm

But I’m open to hearing other perspectives. Maybe this is mainly a motion picture thing? I’ve worked alongside many commercial still photographers who only use modern autofocus lenses, and their images look great. But then, they usually have so much more control over the final image. As a cinematographer, I feel the need to bake in as much of my look in-camera as is practical, as I may not be involved in the color-grading session at all.

print work is totally different... and going to comment above; as is the summer blockbuster film compared to an Aronofsky art-house film or a Soderbergh experimental movie. You might have limited days, can't afford a light ranger 2 w/Leica Primes... you might spend half your budget on an actor for 3 days?

could be a 2nd Unit-DoP and a 1st AC on a boat on the Nile river in 100+ degree weather getting B-Roll for ... Auto-Focus

 

[Blair Thornton]

Buying a full frame Nikon Z6 with AF revolutionized my gimbal and handheld shooting on corporate run and gun shoots. Excited to see how far this tech can be pushed.

Right tools for the job. I group the anti-AF guys with the anti-8K guys. So much to gain from either with the right job.

I still think compact lightfield tech is coming and will make AF that's any better than what we have now unnecessary (except for live applications).

Totally agree, I would like see AF for RED Gimbal work - integrated into Teradek RT https://teradek.com/collections/teradek-rt

 

[Alex Stolpakov]

Satsuki Murashige one more of my legends of set life.

 

[Matthew Riggieri]

Preston Light Ranger 2 with AF controls is out in the wild being used. Nuff Said. Not afraid, just another tool. As sensor's get larger, having the confidence of an AF system will be awesome. Was used on The Greatest Showman for the trapeze shot, AC has said it would be impossible to do without being able to switch on the AF. Focus goes from 90' to CF on a 180mm in a mater of seconds.

https://www.fdtimes.com/2018/01/29/gods-of-focus-speak2/

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

I’ve worked alongside many commercial still photographers who only use modern autofocus lenses, and their images look great.

That's certainly a good point. Although others will use old, manual focus lenses as well. And not just because you can buy them for as little as $5-$25. Sports shooters definitely want AF and would not give it up, a sentiment with which I agree. But for the others, AF isn't compulsory, and so they have more room to play.

I've done some commercial work here and there, and although I used an AF lens most of the time, I focused it manually.

 

[John David Pope]

Keep in mind that only a very small percentage of video productions use a focus pulling crew member. In most video shooting the cam op is performing the focusing.

What percentage of video productions would you guess use a dedicated focus puller? 5% Possibly less than 1%? .1?

With these advanced AF systems Canon and Sony are targeting the vast majority of video productions. They are putting the feature on their sub-$20K cameras which are workhorses in that 90% of the market. Even if "high-end" productions don't take to it, the AF systems still appeal to 95+% of the industry. "predictive focus" is something most productions, by far, do not need. And most productions only need the focus maintained on a single subject the entire shot.

 

[Jeffery Anderson]

Keep in mind that only a very small percentage of video productions use a focus pulling crew member. In most video shooting the cam op is performing the focusing.

What percentage of video productions would you guess use a dedicated focus puller? 5% Possibly less than 1%? .1?

Red's bread and butter is Netflix... how many narrative shows on Netflix employee a 1st and 2nd AC + DIT + Datawrangler? my guess would be 100%, then you have 2nd Unit

Documentaries? IDK, I would think you would have a Camera Assistant 100% of the time. But, they might not pull focus

if it's shot with a cinema camera, you're going to have a camera assistant and they are going to pull focus

With these advanced AF systems Canon and Sony are targeting the vast majority of video productions. They are putting the feature on their sub-$20K cameras which are workhorses in that 90% of the market. Even if "high-end" productions don't take to it, the AF systems still appeal to 95+% of the industry. "predictive focus" is something most productions, by far, do not need. And most productions only need the focus maintained on a single subject the entire shot.

I don't know where these # come from or what a video production is... the FX9 will probably be used to shoot Documentaries in 4K and the Autofocus will be used for tracking shots

 

[Satsuki Murashige]

Satsuki Murashige one more of my legends of set life.

???

 

[Alex Stolpakov]

???

Just an appreciation for the saint look how it should be done.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

I disagree with this perspective. Take Sony's A9, for example. It is amazingly accurate and precise. A tennis player can be moving back and forth, behind the net, whatever, and the A9 locks onto them like a rabid dog on a baby. AF algorithms can certainly work while a frame isn't being recorded (e.g. the 180 degrees that the 'shutter' is 'closed').

You are disagreeing with perspective while looking at a completely different image.

In yours there is no script, acting, director, specific creative intent and any shaping of the context of the shot, let alone with subtleties and variations of pace.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Keep in mind that only a very small percentage of video productions use a focus pulling crew member. In most video shooting the cam op is performing the focusing.

What percentage of video productions would you guess use a dedicated focus puller? 5% Possibly less than 1%? .1?

With these advanced AF systems Canon and Sony are targeting the vast majority of video productions. They are putting the feature on their sub-$20K cameras which are workhorses in that 90% of the market. Even if "high-end" productions don't take to it, the AF systems still appeal to 95+% of the industry. "predictive focus" is something most productions, by far, do not need. And most productions only need the focus maintained on a single subject the entire shot.

It's not just high end related. I've shot docu, corporate, BTS, music vids, sports, car rallys, sitcom, events, cooking shows, etc. and regardless of AF quality I'd be screwed if AF was the dominant tool.

It can help here and there, for some shots, but cannot substitute freedom and feel of manual focus needed in many shoots. It's an extra complementary feature, not a replacement for the need to work and develop skills, as some people like to imagine, slapping titles next to their name right after tool acquisition.

Also, If I shot weddings, I'd think twice before choosing to rely on an algorythm to focus from a candle to a newlyweds' first kiss.

One can apply the same principle to docu or anything where you have one shot opportunity and that's it, with healthy eyes and hands at disposal and no time to setup the computer to do the work for you.

 

[john white]

Preston Light Ranger 2 with AF controls is out in the wild being used. Nuff Said. Not afraid, just another tool. As sensor's get larger, having the confidence of an AF system will be awesome. Was used on The Greatest Showman for the trapeze shot, AC has said it would be impossible to do without being able to switch on the AF. Focus goes from 90' to CF on a 180mm in a mater of seconds.

https://www.fdtimes.com/2018/01/29/gods-of-focus-speak2/

I came in to post about the Light Ranger 2. It’s really an amazing system

 

[Satsuki Murashige]

Just an appreciation for the saint look how it should be done.

Ah, well thank you for the compliment, but I don’t deserve it. Just another journeyman DP like most here, expressing my opinion. I wouldn’t put any special stock in it!

 

[John David Pope]

A question for you, Hrvoje- Have you any personal experience with the Sony Fx9 AF upon which you are passing judgment?

Let's agree that AF, even "Fast Hybrid AF", cannot replace a human in every situation and will be of only limited use in scripted work. Okay. And?