Bailout Alternative???

[number6]

Even in the Bible there is the concept of Jubilee. Every 50 years all debts are forgiven. Again - a redistribution of wealth that worked. Jesus certainly was in favor of it. Now I know God doesn't impress some people much, but that makes an impression on me.

Oh good gravy! Now Wall Street has the god argument for the bailout!:angry03:

 

[jpp]

Again with the irresponsible use of the welfare word...

Granted, this isn't the LA Times (more like the New York Times:usd: ) and while we are not real journalists, I think we should try and at least attempt to play-a-journalist-on-the-Internet while making these posts.

Instead of just doing commentary all the time, occasionally do some actual reporting and back up a statement--if not with hard facts, at least put up something that passes as potentially a fact.

I realize I'm wasting my breath, but if you're determined to regard largesse payments and wealth transfers to Texas from the citizens of other states as either 1) for the public good (which makes you a socialist), or 2) somehow earned or deserved (which makes you monarchist), I can't stop you.

In my book, anyone who takes in more public money than he contributes in taxes is on welfare, but you can call it Divine Grace instead, if you want. After all, you're the guy who thinks the Chinese are drilling for oil off the Florida coast, so who am I to argue with you? In fact, why argue here at all? Between the 17-year olds and the wingers on the boards, these discussions are really a fool's errand.

 

[number6]

I realize I'm wasting my breath, but if you're determined to regard largesse payments and wealth transfers to Texas from the citizens of other states as either 1) for the public good (which makes you a socialist), or 2) somehow earned or deserved (which makes you monarchist), I can't stop you.

In my book, anyone who takes in more public money than he contributes in taxes is on welfare

Or I could easily turn your argument against you and say any state (or person) that takes in more goods and services than they produce are freeloaders who are living off the largess of the ones doing the work.

But I won't. I'll agree to stop here if you will.

 

[Steven M. Bailey]

It's clear that unmoderated capitalism results in a consolidation of wealth and power. That's whats been creeping here in America. It's turned into a brisk walk under Bush.

True unmoderated capitalism hasn't existed since the signing of the current constitution. Elitists found that the Articles of Confederation were too weak to take money from the people. One of the first requirements of the new federal government farm subsidies came down from George Washington himself. The MANDATORY crop of marijuana. I believe it was eight acres per section. Now eight acres could get you life.:watsup: :matrix:

 

[PatrickW]

True unmoderated capitalism hasn't existed since the signing of the current constitution. Elitists found that the Articles of Confederation were too weak to take money from the people. One of the first requirements of the new federal government farm subsidies came down from George Washington himself. The MANDATORY crop of marijuana. I believe it was eight acres per section. Now eight acres could get you life.:watsup: :matrix:

hemp and marijuana are different things.

 

[Andrew M.]

True unmoderated capitalism hasn't existed since the signing of the current constitution. Elitists found that the Articles of Confederation were too weak to take money from the people.

The good thing is that you can go and vote for more moderation in capitalism by picking less conservative government. Did you register for the vote BTW?

And in turn when there is too much Socialism in the system you can always go back and vote for Conservative Government.

We need third party though, Liberal like they have in Canada.
Conservative, Liberal, and Democratic party, otherwise you end up with hot/cold water shower effect. Constant yoyo.

Talking about how happy the Scandinavians are, maybe they are most happy but Canada is voted the best country to live in, year after year, by UN.
I guess 50/50 mix of Capitalism and Comunism (50% confiscation of the income) there and Conservative, Liberal, and Democratic adjusters works the best for this geographic latitude

 

[Joel Kaye]

If you guys haven't seen this check it out. This is pretty much my view of what's going on and why I'm so skeptical of the bailout and many other policies.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912

You have to watch the whole thing to truly understand the whole puzzle.

 

[Priyesh P.]

hey joelnet - it`s a bit long, but interesting!

 

[Steven M. Bailey]

Kalone I see that the good doctor has returned.:gun:

Joelnet:I can't believe I watched that for two hours. I see and agree with most of it in spirit. The world would be a much better place if everyone could share the overall vision. But alas I don't see it as a potential reality.

I sat down and sketched a bullet continental transit system years ago. It looked just like their drawings, and Geothermal is by far the way to go. Ive been advocating that for years.

The Utopian dream is not a new one and even shrink wrapped into the Shiny, pretty, new box of "technology" It still lacks the admittance of one important fact. There are evil men afoot, and where evil men are, evil deeds. A recent study points to one in twenty-five as a psychopath. That means that in the us alone there are 8,120,000 psychopathic people. How will they exist in this purist climate.

I like the part in the matrix where the matrix is being described and the point is made that man didn't flourish in utopia, so they built a world full of struggles and adversity. :gun: :help:

Just my 2/5 of a nickel

 

[Vladimir Eugene]

If you guys haven't seen this check it out. This is pretty much my view of what's going on and why I'm so skeptical of the bailout and many other policies.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912

You have to watch the whole thing to truly understand the whole puzzle.

It is a fascinating video, I'm forwarding to my friends- not because I agree with everything it says, but it can start critical dialog, and that's a great step.

vlad

 

[Joel Kaye]

There are evil men afoot, and where evil men are, evil deeds. A recent study points to one in twenty-five as a psychopath. That means that in the us alone there are 8,120,000 psychopathic people. How will they exist in this purist climate.

Maybe they won't exist in as great a number because the main causes of the behavior have been changed. Clean up the air, the messages of the media, the food and I think you'll have a lower occurrence of nutjobs.

I can't remember the exact quote, but someone once said that a natural response to living in a crazy world is to become crazy.

But that doesn't solve the problem of truly evil people... the ones the are at home in chaos and feel uncomfortable when confronted with peace and a more egalitarian society.

 

[Priyesh P.]

Steve, glad to see that you noticed

 

[Andrew Walker]

I like the part in the matrix where the matrix is being described and the point is made that man didn't flourish in utopia, so they built a world full of struggles and adversity. :gun: :help:

Just my 2/5 of a nickel

Just so you know, that is how people evolve and move forward. Not just as a person but as a species. If life were perfect and we had nothing to work for then we would become stagnant. Personally I like the struggle in my life, I like the payoff for all that hard work that I've done.

There are evil men afoot, and where evil men are, evil deeds. A recent study points to one in twenty-five as a psychopath. That means that in the us alone there are 8,120,000 psychopathic people. How will they exist in this purist climate.

There is that saying, when good men do nothing evil prevails. There are good people in the world, they just lack the will to change the world because the world would label them as monsters for what they would have to do to stop evil. Mainly because what people think is good and pure in this world is just a system of control that has most people fooled into believing that being without morals and without a conscious is normal behavior. People have been taught not to take responsibility for their actions and that its other peoples' fault for not telling them that it was right or wrong. When people can sue a company for spilling hot coffee on themselves you know something is insanely wrong with at the very least people in America or more so with our justice system.

 

[number6]

Just so you know, that is how people evolve and move forward. Not just as a person but as a species. If life were perfect and we had nothing to work for then we would become stagnant. Personally I like the struggle in my life, I like the payoff for all that hard work that I've done.



There is that saying, when good men do nothing evil prevails. There are good people in the world, they just lack the will to change the world because the world would label them as monsters for what they would have to do to stop evil. Mainly because what people think is good and pure in this world is just a system of control that has most people fooled into believing that being without morals and without a conscious is normal behavior. People have been taught not to take responsibility for their actions and that its other peoples' fault for not telling them that it was right or wrong. When people can sue a company for spilling hot coffee on themselves you know something is insanely wrong with at the very least people in America or more so with our justice system.

Drew599, I agree with what you say here, and not just because your avatar is pointing a gun at my head:gun: .

I would have said the same thing if you were handing me an avacodo, palm up. (Love those things!)

 

[jpp]

People have been taught not to take responsibility for their actions and that its other peoples' fault for not telling them that it was right or wrong.

I guess you're referring here to the people who run the American financial system and corporate America in general --- the ones who refuse to take responsibility for their actions and rely on the taxpayer to bail them out?

When people can sue a company for spilling hot coffee on themselves you know something is insanely wrong with at the very least people in America or more so with our justice system.

Do you actually know the facts about that widely derided case? The settlement involved a gag rule insisted upon by McDonalds, so the woman who won suit was not at liberty to explain what really happened when she was ridiculed by late night talk-show hosts and so-called "conservatives". So let me tell you:

This woman was seriously scalded, and her accident was not the first one: McDonalds was already on notice that the temperature of the coffee posed a significant burn hazard.

The woman incurred significant medical costs. She approached McDonald's corporate management, and asked for help paying the bills, since she was uninsured. McDonalds refused. Only then did it go to court. The size of the settlement reflected the fact that McDonalds had been negligent over a long period of time; this was not the first instance of serious burns.

Satisfied? You're the guy, after all, who wants people (and corporations?) to accept responsibility for their actions.

 

[Cameron Preyde]

This woman was seriously scalded, and her accident was not the first one: McDonalds was already on notice that the temperature of the coffee posed a significant burn hazard.

Doesn't all fresh coffee pose a significant burn hazard??

Life is so much simpler than we make it out to be. Why do we not look to those with whom we share our home for inspiration? The Ant works diligently for all the colony and it's reward is safety. The Squirrel gathers food when the season is right and uses it for winter. We have complicated our lives with luxuries.

"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to every one at the root, and it may be that he who bestows the most time and money on the needy, is by his mode of life causing the very strife which he in vain strives to relieve."

Henry David Thoreau

"Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds."

Bob Marley

These are my prophets...who are yours?

 

[Joel Kaye]

Doesn't all fresh coffee pose a significant burn hazard??

Yeah, but that case is more complicated than Rush Limbaugh makes it out to be. Typical... if you get your talking point from him or Hannity you're probably wrong.

"The facts of the case, which caused a jury of six men and six women to find McDonald's coffee was unreasonably dangerous and had caused enough human misery and suffering that no one should be made to suffer exposure to such excessively hot coffee again, will shock and amaze you:

McFact No. 1: For years, McDonald's had known they had a problem with the way they make their coffee - that their coffee was served much hotter (at least 20 degrees more so) than at other restaurants.

McFact No. 2: McDonald's knew its coffee sometimes caused serious injuries - more than 700 incidents of scalding coffee burns in the past decade have been settled by the Corporation - and yet they never so much as consulted a burn expert regarding the issue.

McFact No. 3: The woman involved in this infamous case suffered very serious injuries - third degree burns on her groin, thighs and buttocks that required skin grafts and a seven-day hospital stay.

McFact No. 4: The woman, an 81-year old former department store clerk who had never before filed suit against anyone, said she wouldn't have brought the lawsuit against McDonald's had the Corporation not dismissed her request for compensation for medical bills.

McFact No. 5: A McDonald's quality assurance manager testified in the case that the Corporation was aware of the risk of serving dangerously hot coffee and had no plans to either turn down the heat or to post warning about the possibility of severe burns, even though most customers wouldn't think it was possible.

McFact No. 6: After careful deliberation, the jury found McDonald's was liable because the facts were overwhelmingly against the company. When it came to the punitive damages, the jury found that McDonald's had engaged in willful, reckless, malicious, or wanton conduct, and rendered a punitive damage award of 2.7 million dollars. (The equivalent of just two days of coffee sales, McDonalds Corporation generates revenues in excess of 1.3 million dollars daily from the sale of its coffee, selling 1 billion cups each year.)

McFact No. 7: On appeal, a judge lowered the award to $480,000, a fact not widely publicized in the media.

McFact No. 8: A report in Liability Week, September 29, 1997, indicated that Kathleen Gilliam, 73, suffered first degree burns when a cup of coffee spilled onto her lap. Reports also indicate that McDonald's consistently keeps its coffee at 185 degrees, still approximately 20 degrees hotter than at other restaurants. Third degree burns occur at this temperature in just two to seven seconds, requiring skin grafting, debridement and whirlpool treatments that cost tens of thousands of dollars and result in permanent disfigurement, extreme pain and disability to the victims for many months, and in some cases, years."


If McDonald's and all their lawyers lose anything it's because they really messed up.

Having said that, I'm totally in favor of tort reform and loser pays... and even limits on medical lawsuit awards provided health insurance rates drop drastically.

 

[Andrew Walker]

If a McDonald's employee threw the coffee on her then I could see the reason for the lawsuit. But the FACT is she spilled it on herself. The problem with this lawsuit is that it sparked so many others like it. Like the robber that hurt himself by falling through that skylight and then sewed the owners. Now how is that fair? Come on, try and spin that one.

http://overlawyered.com/2006/09/the-burglar-and-the-skylight-another-debunking-that-isnt/

 

[jpp]

If a McDonald's employee threw the coffee on her then I could see the reason for the lawsuit. But the FACT is she spilled it on herself.

This is nonsense, but if you insist.... Spilling of the product is/was so a common an eventuality that ignoring the consequences of doing so was gross negligence under any reasonable interpretation of liability law. I believe the term is "reckless endangerment", particularly after 700 prior bad outcomes, and for a corporation with the resources of McDonalds.

The problem with this lawsuit is that it sparked so many others like it. Like the robber that hurt himself by falling through that skylight and then sewed the owners. Now how is that fair? Come on, try and spin that one.

The only real "problem" with this lawsuit were the foolish charges made against it by the business lobby, their propagandists in the media, and audiences who repeated those absurdities. You really do need to look beyond Hannity, Jay Leno and Limbaugh for your information.

I know nothing about your other lawsuit, and, in any case, am under no obligation to "spin" or defend it. One absurdity -- if that's what it is, I haven't studied the matter -- doesn't invalidate tort law or the age-old notion of liability. But by all means, change the subject, when you have nothing left to stand on.

 

[Andrew Walker]

I'm just talking about responsibility is all. Coffee is suppose to be hot and should be treated as such. If I shot myself in the foot, by accident, should I go after the gun and bullet manufactures because they make firearm that works when I pull the trigger or because the bullet moved to fast and caused so much damage to my foot. I should do neither because it was an accident and it was my fault. People just need to claim responsibility for what they do, even if it makes them look stupid.