Bailout Alternative???

[Joe D'Arcy]

the markets vs the planet

the markets vs the planet

The markets rely on consumerism or the country will fall into recession/depression yet we are consuming at a rate that is not sustainable for the planet, creating exponential levels of destruction, with seemingly little regard for this incongruency. In the planet's bid for homeostasis, 'somethings gonna give.'

 

[Stephen Williams]

So, by your definition, the CEOs who made hundreds of millions on unsound mortgages have earned their wealth, .

Hi,

The amount of money CEOs made on the unsound mortgages is rather less than you believe.

Stephen

 

[jpp]

Hi,

The amount of money CEOs made on the unsound mortgages is rather less than you believe.

Is that so?

"Angelo R. Mozilo has pocketed $410 million in salary, bonuses and stock-option gains since he became executive chairman of mortgage lender Countrywide Financial in 1999, according to the executive compensation company Equilar.

"Now, the man at the center of the national mortgage crisis stands to collect an additional $112 million in severance when Bank of America buys the company he helped found. "

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/11/AR2008011103673.html

Half a billion isn't bad for driving a company into ruin, even as American CEO pay goes.

Or how about asking Hank Paulson, former CEO of Goldman Sachs, and under whom the subprime business at Goldman Sachs boomed, what his net worth is? Last estimate I saw was well over $700 million.

 

[Steven M. Bailey]

A lot of the people that I know are poor because they are lazy, stupid, or strong combination of both. I have seen people land good middle class jobs with health benefits and lose them for not showing up to work all the while crying about how life was unfair. Ive tried as a business owner to hire people that needed a hand up and found that too many hands up can drag you down. Many people will be poor no matter how much you give them.

I worked the docks for a local Wal~mart distribution center about ten years ago. The place was hell, but it was a job. While working there I had invested in walmart stock and was able to cash out to build my first house. After three years of unloading trucks with my back, I got an opportunity to work in one of the best middle class jobs ever, "a paper mill".

The people at the paper mill had seen little turn over and many of them had been there for the last 30-40 years. It was a union company full benefits, high pay the works. The American working mans dream. My dad had been there for twenty five years and had started in the same position I was in and was now the head of the maintenance department.

I had gone from the slave labor camps of wall~mart to babysitting a machine for more money than I thought I would ever make. The old timers would sleep through their entire shift and tell you to wake them up if the machine did something funny. I couldn't believe my ears. Those guys would piss and moan and belly ache about how terrible they were treated and how they should all just quite their jobs rather than face the injustice's brought down apon them. These guys actually slept through their shifts, got paid really well, then whined about being screwed by the man.

One year after landing this cool job, the Koreans flooded the paper market and due to an inability to compete the mill was closed. Those same guys that thought they were getting screwed before now learned what it really meant.
that was about seven years ago. Most of the workers from the paper plant took a huge cut in pay and went to work at a new fiberglass plant that was being built when the paper machines stopped. Last week that plant announced that they would be shutting down due to lack of demand. Again they learned what I means to be screwed.

I went to work for myself Cashed out on my house and found myself investing in larger and larger projects all the while amassing a nice credit score and freedom that came with large amounts of equity. but that's all gone now. The foreclosure crisis has killed the entire construction market. I had to say goodbye to my favorite truck today, but at least it was sold before it got repossessed. My house is next. I had my sixth open house this weekend without any lookers.:help:

America is poor because its people are too poor in general to buy products we produce. We had good jobs in steel(went to brazil). We had good jobs in paper, textiles, agriculture. even our most coveted commodity (forest products) Are taken by the Japanese sawed up on ships and sold back to us. Its cheaper to get it from somewhere else but who's going to pay for it if there are no real jobs here to produce capitol. There is no easy fix. If we send capitol to poor countries for product that we consume we will become poorer as they become richer. It may take some time but it will happen.

I agree with Clint on a lot of points in practice as well as theory, but free market will only work when people have the basic morality to work within the constraints of what they are producing in regards to personal greed. I have no problem with the rich getting richer as long as it can be done without oppressing the people. I have no respect for company's like Walmart who build there empire on the backs of slaves and setup brainwashing programs to make them believe that it isn't so. I've been there

The credit card company's are as much to blame for the crisis as the mortgage brokers. Someone like me who is already struggling to make all the payments doesn't need for them to change the interest rate on his cards from 5 to 30+ percent without reason. How can you keep making that house payment when the business card payments have multiplied times six. They have driven people passed the point of hope and when the people don't care anymore everyone loses.

WoW This was a longer post than I intended. I could rant for another week but whats the point. I have an awesome screenplay to write. So chow for now.

just my 2/5 of a nickel

 

[Mark B.]

A lot of the people that I know are poor because they are lazy, stupid, or strong combination of both.

Most of the poor people I know are poor because they have ethics and compassion for others. Look at the salary of teachers versus people working sales and marketing. It's easy to make money if you only care about your bank account, with no regard towards other people, the environment, or the future well-being of the world.

 

[Joel Kaye]

just my 2/5 of a nickel

Helluva post.

I know some very hardworking people that did "everything right" and are losing everything right now. I'm not one of those that's going to blame mortgage crisis on the borrowers.

Some people seem to think the single mother or construction worker that wants a house is in the same negotiating position as Goldman Sachs in a mortgage transaction. That's ludicrous - though that's the trash a lot of pundits are shoveling. Well now we're seeing more of the truth. These institutions were gambling casinos at best (250-1 margin bets with no oversight) and criminal enterprises at worst.

President Bush himself urged Americans to buy as much home as they possibly could. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eW9viaJatpo

And now they want a bailout. Tough, pull yourselves up by your own bootstraps. That's a Republican mantra, right?

 

[Steven M. Bailey]

Most of the poor people I know are poor because they have ethics and compassion for others. It's easy to make money if you only care about your bank account, with no regard towards other people or the environment. I think ethics and morality are directly tied towards intelligence, and none of those are proportional to money earned. Hard work doesn't equate to gaining more money, it just equates to exhaustion and physical pain.

This is true and I wont argue it. Many people make sacrifices for others and live very modest lives because of it. No problem, I know a few people like that.

But they aren't in the same class of poor as the meth addicted /"I wont come to work today cause I drunk the bar dry last night". We affectionately refer to Tuesday as "tweeker Tuesday". Tweek all weekend, show up smashed on Monday, skip Tuesday because Monday was a disaster start the workweek on Wednesday. Thursday is productive but Friday is spent planning the weekend.

I didn't mean to imply that all poor people were dumb. I just happen to know a lot of people that sabotage their own lives at every opportunity. I'm pretty poor myself right now.

 

[Steven M. Bailey]

Helluva post.



Some people seem to think the single mother or construction worker that wants a house is in the same negotiating position as Goldman Sachs in a mortgage transaction. That's ludicrous - though that's the trash a lot of pundits are shoveling. Well now we're seeing more of the truth. These institutions were gambling casinos at best (250-1 margin bets with no oversight) and criminal enterprises at worst.

And now they want a bailout. Tough, pull yourselves up by your own bootstraps. That's a Republican mantra, right?

I actually have a pretty good loan. My problem stems from the total destruction of my whole industry. If I could work I could pay my bills. There is no work. Ive applied for every job in town.

I am currently thinking of going to Texas to help with the rebuilding process. I have mad building skills.

we'll see how things go

 

[Joel Kaye]

I actually have a pretty good loan. My problem stems from the total destruction of my whole industry. If I could work I could pay my bills. There is no work. Ive applied for every job in town.

Right. I was commenting in general and not about you. But your story is a great example of how good, hardworking people are getting stuck in this mess - and it's not just meth addicts etc. Are there some lazy Americans out there? Sure. But go to any other country and I'm sure you'll find some "lazy" drunks and druggies.

The key here is we've outsourced our jobs. We've been invaded by Chinese products. America has almost always had tariff protections. But in the past 30ish years those protections went away and the rules were changed. Corporations (legally bound to benefit their shareholders) simply outsourced everything because that provided the maximum profit.

That's where Reagonomics failed. Trickle down didn't. It trickled out of the country. And you're seeing it first hand.

The solution is to change the rules. How about starting with not making American Military boots in China?

Then how about not spending tax dollars with any company not HQ'd in the U.S.? How about no defense contractor millionaires? How about no gov't contracts to any company that doesn't employ 80% American citizens? How about raising taxes on billionaires since they didn't honor the trickle down promise?

There are a lot of things we could do before taxing you and me to pay for a Bank CEO's butler.

 

[Michael Schrengohst]

I actually have a pretty good loan. My problem stems from the total destruction of my whole industry. If I could work I could pay my bills. There is no work. Ive applied for every job in town.

I am currently thinking of going to Texas to help with the rebuilding process. I have mad building skills.

we'll see how things go."

"The solution is to change the rules. How about starting with not making American Military boots in China?"

Yes and Yes. I live in Texas and see massive amounts of license plates from CA, Michigan, New York, Florida.... We are growing, it's clean, cheaper than California. You can always come for a few years and then go back. I have lived here 40 years. I traveled quite a bit from 1984-2000. I had a video production company doing almost One Mil a year from about 1987-1991.
That is as big as I wanted it to get. I had about 10 employees at the height of the business. Some were good and eventually went out to CA and worked in TV news or entertainment. But most of the employees were pretty spoiled whiners. It's ironic but by 2001 I had had enough. I sold my part to my ex-business partner and by July 2001 I was working from home on my own. It's was incredible. I got to keep most of the money I made and had not a care in the world. I was at home on 9-11 and saw it all. It took about 6 months and the clients came back. I actually started free-lancing for my old partner,
got to stay at home and raise two boys and made more money than I ever did even when I grossed One Million a year. So today watching the fireworks in Washington, the sinking in NYC and the general panic & confusion of everyone on the net it is a wonder we were not invaded by China.
It's time for Washington to get the hell out of the business of running business. They suck at it. Just keep the terrorists off my back and don't take too much of my money and I will be fine. I don't need any government programs to save me. I don't need any government program to help me. I don't know how to get anything from the federal government because I have never had to. Sure, I know they are there if my house gets blown away in a storm but that's about it. I have been self reliant for almost 50 years. I am pretty sure I can make it another 20 or 30 without any help. Just get out of my way. Let me make money the way I know how to and I will send you my taxes. if you want to slow me down I may just stop and then you won't get anything.

 

[GlennChan]

So, by your definition, the CEOs who made hundreds of millions on unsound mortgages have earned their wealth, while burger flippers, who get no bailouts, deserve to be poor?

The CEOs are lucky to be compensated so handsomely in my opinion. If the shareholders were smarter, they would demand a more reasonable compensation structure so that the CEOs' earnings are tied to the interests of the shareholders. e.g. pay them in stock and don't give out options; and force them to hold a certain amount of their personal wealth in their company's stock.
Warren Buffet I believe does this for companies under his control (e.g. for Ken Chace at Berkshire Hathway's textiles factory).

2- In capitalism, yes some people will get paid extraordinarily well. Kobe Bryant will be paid a lot more than teachers, nurses, etc. Is this fair? It's up for you to decide (ok, it's probably unfair if you want to be an actor, author, athlete, etc.).
But I would argue that nothing extremely nefarious is going on- it's not like the upper class is artificially abusing their position of power to create such disproportionate distributions of wealth. For the most part, these distributions will naturally occur.

The system is fixed, and inherited privilege has a great deal to do, in modern America, with who's rich and who isn't, and who's comfortable and who isn't.

If you look at the richest Americans (e.g. Bill Gates, Warren Buffet), they are not old rich. They started with very little (relative to their current wealth) and built up their wealth.

 

[GlennChan]

The key here is we've outsourced our jobs.

I don't think it's the right way to look at it. Trade is a 2-way street... you want to trade with other countries because your country is good at doing X and the other country at Y.

American companies are good at making digital cinema cameras*, web search (e.g. Google), making TV shows (other countries subsidize their TV and their citizens still prefer US shows), etc. etc.
The US is losing manufacturing jobs but it is gaining jobs in other sectors. And for the most part, the US is a lot richer because of this.

*Red does hire non-Americans like Graeme, Rob, etc. So to force protectionism onto American companies (or government agencies) is probably a really bad idea. It might seem like a good idea... but I don't think you would really want it.

2- In a capitalism system, hardworking people will become unemployed and that can suck. Innovation can/does cause competitors to go out of business.

 

[jpp]

2- In capitalism, yes some people will get paid extraordinarily well.... But I would argue that nothing extremely nefarious is going on- it's not like the upper class is artificially abusing their position of power to create such disproportionate distributions of wealth. For the most part, these distributions will naturally occur.

Have you looked at U.S. tax policy over the last 30 years? At cuts in social services which primarily affect the poor and middle-class? At how tax money is spent? At corporate and wealth subsidies? At the legislative war waged against unions? And you really don't find anything "nefarious" about the huge push to give the super wealthy tax cuts, when those cuts require borrowing, which effectively socializes the costs over generations?

There's a class war going on in the U.S. If you don't see abuse, you're either not looking or don't want to find anything.

If you look at the richest Americans (e.g. Bill Gates, Warren Buffet), they are not old rich. They started with very little (relative to their current wealth) and built up their wealth.

What you need to do is look at social mobility figures in this country. You'll find that most Americans barely move out of their social stations. Born rich, die rich. Born poor, die poor. Citing two self-made billionaires doesn't prove there's high social mobility, any more than Steve Forbes and Mitt Romney are proof that the only rich people in America are those who inherited fortunes.

 

[Anthony Gratl]

Ever since the Federal Reserve has been ingrained into this country it has sought to bring it down. They have to make everything so bad that most of the sheep will be begging for the North American Union. This is all history repeating its self and the process of getting rid of any competition to the Federal Reserve. Then next thing that's going to happen just like in 1933 is the seizing of all the privately owned gold.

Drew, we've disagreed in the past, but you are spot on the money with that one. Notice JP Morgan Stanley's buy this week? Washington Mutual, a bank with 300 billion in assets and 20 billion in cash....cost: 1.9 billion. That's like buying a brand new red for a hundred bucks. The regulator: approval in an afternoon! The media: not a squeek of questioning, exploring...nothing.....everyone's watching the show, while the orchaestrators do their thing swiftly, efficiently, and in full view.
This is all orchaestrated people. The federal reserve act needs to be squashed like a bug. The national mint of any sovereign nation belongs to its people, not a private company. The bank, like in monopoly, always wins. This ain't no free market...it's a highly controlled one, just not by the people.....and a strong agreement with what curran said too.

 

[Anthony Gratl]

The CEOs are lucky to be compensated so handsomely in my opinion. If the shareholders were smarter, they would demand a more reasonable compensation structure so that the CEOs' earnings are tied to the interests of the shareholders. e.g. pay them in stock and don't give out options; and force them to hold a certain amount of their personal wealth in their company's stock.
Warren Buffet I believe does this for companies under his control (e.g. for Ken Chace at Berkshire Hathway's textiles factory).

2- In capitalism, yes some people will get paid extraordinarily well. Kobe Bryant will be paid a lot more than teachers, nurses, etc. Is this fair? It's up for you to decide (ok, it's probably unfair if you want to be an actor, author, athlete, etc.).
But I would argue that nothing extremely nefarious is going on- it's not like the upper class is artificially abusing their position of power to create such disproportionate distributions of wealth. For the most part, these distributions will naturally occur.


If you look at the richest Americans (e.g. Bill Gates, Warren Buffet), they are not old rich. They started with very little (relative to their current wealth) and built up their wealth.

I would argue that you haven't been anywhere and seen the results of the upper class abusing their positions of power. You don't seem to have a clue as to how our political system operates, and you're either extremely young or extremely naive.

 

[Anthony Gratl]

I don't think it's the right way to look at it. Trade is a 2-way street... you want to trade with other countries because your country is good at doing X and the other country at Y.

Right....and why do goods come from China?

American companies are good at making digital cinema cameras*, web search (e.g. Google), making TV shows (other countries subsidize their TV and their citizens still prefer US shows), etc. etc.
The US is losing manufacturing jobs but it is gaining jobs in other sectors. And for the most part, the US is a lot richer because of this.

This is just nonsense. America is richer for losing manufacturing jobs? You have your head firmly planted Glenn....that's about the most outrageous shit i've ever read on this site. Pity you're from my hometown.

*Red does hire non-Americans like Graeme, Rob, etc. So to force protectionism onto American companies (or government agencies) is probably a really bad idea. It might seem like a good idea... but I don't think you would really want it.

Glenn, some of the best and brightest there are immigrants. Think the space program engineers, microsofts software engineers. But you think it's a bad idea because Red hires non-americans? I think that you took a course in economy in high school and decided to apply it to everyday life and draw conclusions that way.......thats a very bad idea.

2- In a capitalism system, hardworking people will become unemployed and that can suck. Innovation can/does cause competitors to go out of business.

And this is where i think you're literally a child, both in body and in economic rationale. Only someone who has never struggled and has had little exposure to the harsh world of losing jobs and the impact on families could write something as insensitive and boorish as that.
EDIT: I guess we should just apply that last quote of yours to your signature story eh? jeez, fx artists lose their pay because of a greedy company? ....oh....that sucks.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

bailout alternative

bailout alternative

http://nowallstreetbailout.com/
If you support this join and forward
Jacek Zakowicz, Optitek

 

[Priyesh P.]

The key here is we've outsourced our jobs. We've been invaded by Chinese products. America has almost always had tariff protections. But in the past 30ish years those protections went away and the rules were changed. Corporations (legally bound to benefit their shareholders) simply outsourced everything because that provided the maximum profit.

cough. Red?

How about no gov't contracts to any company that doesn't employ 80% American citizens? How about raising taxes on billionaires since they didn't honor the trickle down promise?

another cough. Red...Jim Jannard...

 

[Radoslav Karapetkov]

This is getting worse... :sad:

 

[Priyesh P.]

This is getting worse... :sad:

Don`t know if you meant my remarks, but some of the utterances here show the blindness people develop. If all stuff was built in the U.S. you would still pay a fortune on computers and other highend appliances. And Mr. Jannard would not have made the fortune to found Red. And a Red One would be around a million dollars if possible at all.