Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Bad RED footage...

Status
Not open for further replies.
David Mullen ASC said:
He doesn't even try to hide the increased depth of field of the 2/3" CCD camera.
Click to expand...

That's right. He choose HD specifically because of the increased DOF. It's part of his "look at the city" thing. Backgrounds are important to him. I'm a big fan og Mann, but I remember watching MV at a time in my life when I really wanted HD to prove it could stand up to 35mm. I ended up drinking pretty heavily that night....
 
Verko said:
Jim, you know, I came away from NAB astounded at how well RED had thought everything out, from acquisition to post and even eventually display. Your question makes me realize the gaping hole in your master plan - the cinematographer. Or are you actually setting us up for introducing "The Missing Link" in the plan:

The RED Fully Integrated Field Upgradable Cinematographer Microchip Brain Implant, or RED FIFUCMBI!

Please, say it ain't so! We promise, we'll continue to hone our craft and never ever release footage from our REDs that isn't up to snuff! Promise! Don't make us go under the knife!

It's like having children; at some point they are released into the world and they're on their own. RED can make the best camera possible; the rest is up to us.
Click to expand...

Actually, maybe hiring one of the best cinematographers to write a RED user guide might not be such a bad idea. But this will happen anyway as this RED online community matures.

Im not sure if the current Canons have this, but the first film SLR I ever got to play with (owned by my dad) was a canon T-90, (beautiful machine). Anyway, they came with like a 120 page booklet on how to take great shots, including lighting, framing, composing.. It was like a classroom in a book to accompany your newly bought camera. I remember learning quite a bit from it as a child. Do they still do this?
 
Bachman said:
48 Hours After was a way better example of grainy film look than MV. And that was shot DV on XL1's
Click to expand...

Thats the whole point, it wasnt meant to resemble "film look". It actually looked like part of an episode of "COPS", which served the feel and story of the movie quite well. A very intellegent semiotic reference.
 
Jannard said:
I guess what I'm saying is that if bad RED footage is posted... it is not our fault... :-)

Jim
Click to expand...

I was under the impression that the RED would make me a better DP! JIM... You promised!!!! :sarcasm:
 
On a serious note, what we do is completely subjective. Who knows what people will shoot with RED, but I am sure that enough high profile stuff will be properly shot that nobody will blame RED for the questionable stuff. I knew a DP that made 35 look like really bad 16, but nobody blamed that on the film or the camera.

And artistic choices and compromises will be made. I suppose someone could look at Barry Lyndon and say that it was poorly lit and that it was grainy. That would be a narrow view and would be completely missing the point. Or someone could say that Southern Comfort looked dirty and wasn't "beautiful". As long as the choices we make support the story, everything is on the table as far as I'm concerned.

Don't worry so much - the camera and workflow will prove themselves. Yes, we need to do our part. Yes that is a concern for you because you want your babies to do well in the world. Unlike Oakley, where you can control every aspect of the product with your incredible attention to detail, making a camera for sale means you have to let go. Frustrating, isn't it? Knowing your product is out in the world on its own. After sale, all you can do is have faith in the RED users. And do your best to support our activities and art with continuing education and advise from RED. The rest is up to us.

I say this with the utmost respect for you, Jim, and what you've accomplished, as well as the RED team.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
In defense of Michael Mann and "Miami Vice", it's clear when comparing that movie to something like "Zodiac" ... that Michael Mann is not even attempting a classic film aesthetic.
He's attempting to discover a unique "digital aesthetic" in which the artifacts of the medium are enhanced and exaggerated, not hidden in an attempt at a film look.
Click to expand...

Great point, David. Sometimes Directors and DP's actually do things on purpose!:wink:

I think one of the real tragedies of the advent of Digital Cinema is that so many people have tried to bend the digital tools to "copy" a film look. I applaud Michael Mann for doing what he did in trying to discover the new aesthetic. Whether or not he succeeded is up to the individual viewer, but the fact that he made the effort is worthy of note. The tools are evolving so rapidly now with new exciting options, yet it seems most people are just trying to do exactly what they have been for years, only cheaper. I remember back in film school watching cinema from the late 60s and early 70s. SO MANY people were experimenting, pioneering new techniques and discovering new aesthetics. Digital cinema (and distribution) is affording us a new opportunity to experiment and create and push the boundaries. I truly hope more of us take advantage of that.
 
8. bad framing?

The english word for the device at least is finder, while the german word for finder is `seeker´ (sucher) - some shooters take this verbally, with their cams running.
 
Jannard said:
I guess what I'm saying is that if bad RED footage is posted... it is not our fault... :-)

Jim
Click to expand...

- mini collection of a red video gallery can offset any claim like that...which has already been started

- as silly as it may sound to some of the 'pros', seeing that red is going to enter a new market - it would be great to see something like what Lynda.com does...video tutorials on using the red and 'videography'/cinematography in general. Again, this might seem like an odd concept to some, but its not far fetched at all. - :)

Peace

dalen
 
Jannard said:
I guess what I'm saying is that if bad RED footage is posted... it is not our fault... :-)

Jim
Click to expand...

Yes. Ultimately you are. Of course! -;)

Hey, you lured and tricked us all to believe that the camera is actually a real thing - with your beautifull images, so you, Sir - must take personal credit and resposibility for every frame shot with a Red -;)

Gunleik
 
Jim, I am sure you are genuinely concerned about the Red One footage that is about to be released for the world to see. This footage will be from customer cameras, it will be footage that you were not be able to supervise, footage you did not approve before our viewing (as you have nearly every mysterium frame that we have seen so far).

But here is the good news. You are unleashing a fantastic new tool into the creative world. By next year you will be able to assemble the "NAB 2008 Red Show Reel" full of the almost unbelievable fruits of your hard labor. The pieces on that reel will have been shot all over the world, in all types of genres. There will parts from academy award winning DPs and by first time indi filmmakers, all getting the chance to shoot with a camera that leaves no excuses but ones own creativity and determination. The common denominator of every piece on that reel... it will look AMAZING.

Watching that real of customer work will be like watching your child as he steps out on his own and achieves something great. I can imagine it will be one of your proudest moments yet.
 
When I first bought the XL1s camcorder many years ago, I was excited to test out the camera as I was only using a cheap sony 1 ccd camera prior to that.

I was shocked to discover the footage looked not much difference from the consumer 1 ccd camera footage and I thought something was wrong with my XL1s and almost wanted to exchange it.

The person operating the camera definitely makes all the difference, and perhaps there may be people who may go through what I did when I first started with the Red Camera.

Lighting, production design, composing makes all the difference.
 
Jannard said:
Just to remind everyone... it is very easy to shoot BAD RED footage. All you have to do is:

1. Miss exposure.
2. Miss focus (very easy to do)
3. Shoot in bad light
4. Shoot something that is not very interesting.
5. Screw up in post.
6. Forget to add ND filters and shoot everything outside at f22
7. Pan too fast
8... help me out here. Can you add any?

Jim
Click to expand...


Look at your new camera instead of the subject you are shooting.
 
Jannard said:
Just to remind everyone... it is very easy to shoot BAD RED footage. All you have to do is:

1. Miss exposure.
2. Miss focus (very easy to do)
3. Shoot in bad light
4. Shoot something that is not very interesting.
5. Screw up in post.
6. Forget to add ND filters and shoot everything outside at f22
7. Pan too fast
8... help me out here. Can you add any?

Jim
Click to expand...

8. Leave the set to pick up a fight with a Red-basher :gun:
 
Merriam-Webster online:

Main Entry: 1bad
: failing to reach an acceptable standard

Main Entry: 1stan·dard
: something established by authority, custom, or general consent as a model or example

If fear of bad footage leads to "Good Footage" that always conforms to the established authority, it would be kind of like trying to hold on to film origin

I'd rather go for Badass footage myself
 
F1 - have the AC store the filmroll in the car at 65 degree celsius while lunch
F2 - have the producer buy "cheap" filmstock of unknown age
F3 - have the lab screw the onelight
F4 - have a young enthousiastic production assistant run in the thent while changing/loading rolls
F5 - use >500 ASA as experiment
F6 - mix stocks w/o knowing as rolls have been loaded false
F7 - use rental 35mm cam with mechanical problem
F8 - don´t be to precise with gate/hair check
F9 - always use labs withou testing the workflow before
F10 - get a newbie/cheap runner for the rushes
F11 - F20 business secrets

-disclaimer-
all these methods have been fieldtested

-warning-
most tricks of this list will fail when attempting to shoot bad images with a red.
 
8. Just forgot to check if all batteries are charged ;)

To see bad footage (mine or from others) is very important, it always help me to learn what to improve next time or how dont shoot it. If you know how.
 
Jannard said:
Just to remind everyone... it is very easy to shoot BAD RED footage. All you have to do is:

...
4. Shoot something that is not very interesting.
...

Jim
Click to expand...

I tried to think of one to add, but #4 sort of sums up every other possible mistake I can think of. I'd like to add "bad production design," but I still think that falls in category #4. I mean, you see a bunch of "un-cinematic" crap in a shot and the shot is spoiled. Watched a low-budget horror last night, and the female lead steps into a shower (no surprise) and they pan up to the shower head...and it's a white plastic shower head. It just stood out so badly. Ruined the shot. So un-cinematic. Better production design (i.e., an interesting chrome-finish shower head or something) would have saved it.

Certainly true that there will be a lot of bad stuff shot with any camera, film or digital, when any of the things on Jim's list are contravened.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top