Bad Dragon Sensor

[Dan McCain]

I have been a red customer almost from the beginning. I was in the line of early adopters who purchased the Red One then eventually upgraded to the MX sensor. I then purchased an Epic MX, and then another Epic MX which i upgraded to dragon. I have advocated for Red cameras for 7 years, I have been an evangelist and promoted and rented out red cameras in our rental market. I have helped people buy red cameras and consulted for them. So I have been an extremely loyal Red customer and brought them many customers.

Recently, we noticed some issues on our monitor where white lines would appear and sometimes the screen would go completely white along with other funny issues. So we shipped our camera to red for repair. Please note it was an intermittent problem at the time.

Fastforward to today where they have sent me an $11,000 repair bill from Red and they are claiming our sensor isn't working at all. Here are my issues with this scenario:


1.) If the camera was working intermittently when it was shipped to Red (but when Red checks it says there is no sensor readout), how can we trust that Red isn't just changing parts instead of spending time to identify perhaps a simpler issue, at my expense. Or even more cynical just pushing us to change the sensor to make money on it. At $9K I could buy an assortment of new cameras currently available in the market place.
2.) Why should it cost $9K for a dragon sensor when a Raven that supposedly uses the same sensor is cheaper than that for the entire camera?
3.) At a time where the Red cameras are so incredibly expensive compared to most of the other competition, how can the parts and repairs be so expensive? The bottom has fallen out of the rental market and very few people are renting these cameras in this market. Many producers are going for the smaller cameras instead because they can not longer see a quality difference to justify the expense of renting a Red camera. If I spend $30K + on a camera should i not expect it to perform more than a few years?
4.) I asked if it were possible to upgrade to weapon so that I would get a better value for money that paying for a new aging sensor, and I was told that I would have to have a camera in perfect working condition before I could upgrade.

Im sorry but this situation sucks! I have tried to find a middle ground with Red but they have approached me with a take it or leave it attitude.

 

[Nick Morrison]

2.) Why should it cost $9K for a dragon sensor when a Raven that supposedly uses the same sensor is cheaper than that for the entire camera?

So sorry for your situation Dan.

As per the Raven, that 4.5K sensor is MUCH smaller than the 6K sensor in an Epic Dragon, and may explain why the Raven is so much more affordable....

Good luck with everything....

 

[M.Halsell]

When I was young I thought that money was the most important thing in life; now that I am old I know that it is. – Oscar Wilde

 

[Chris McKechnie]

Sorry you're going through this Dan. It's unfortunate that bad things happen sometimes, and it seems you're at crossroads...do you continue on the RED path by investing a heavy chunk of change to either upgrade your camera (after it's repaired), invest in a cheaper RED system, or go down a different path entirely. I personally don't think RED is in the business of just trying to make money because if they were, we'd be paying a heck of a lot more for their cameras. They are trying to give insane tools to us filmmakers at the best possible price they can...so your statement about them just taking a shortcut/the easier path and just charging you more doesn't seem like RED's way of operating. Maybe you just get your camera back, purchase a new Raven or Scarlet W as a backup to your current camera, since the problem is very intermittent for you, and continue on this journey with RED.

I know you probably feel like you're up a creek without a paddle and I I totally understand your frustration. I really hope this gets worked out one way or another.

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

Yeah that sucks. I had a similar experience with my Scarlet camera that really turned me off to owning a RED again. Paid for the expensive and inexplicable repair and sold the camera not too long after. In your case that's a really expensive repair, so it may be really worth crunching the numbers to see if it makes any sense. If you get the repair, what's the resale value of your camera or trade-in value of your camera?

As for RED making money, if they weren't trying to make money they probably wouldn't still exist...

I wonder would this repair have been covered by RED Armor if you had it? One big problem I have with warranties is they are still somewhat limited and might not cover certain types of repairs.

 

[Demetri Zuev]

I once paid close to $1500 for a slightly bent pin on the back of my Epic. Otherwise I couldn't go forward with the Dragon upgrade.

They had to replace the whole board for some reason.

 

[Stacey Spears]

how can we trust that Red isn't just changing parts instead of spending time to identify perhaps a simpler issue, at my expense.

I think in the RED ONE days and maybe even early EPIC days they did replace much larger parts / boards. These days, I believe, they are able to identify issues on the component level and just replace them when possible. The sensor is probably the most expensive component on the camera.

I know this does not help you now, I am sorry that you are in this situraiton. I know when my EPIC-M went in for Dragon upgrade there was an issue they found and had to repair before upgrading.

 

[Keegan@Netflix]

Hi Dan,

Understand your points and there is a lot of variables come into play in regards to repair cost and just because one thing cost a certain price doesn't mean it crosses over the complete product line (That would make things easier even for us

Let me look into this and get our head of support involved.

Someone will follow up with you.

Regards,

Keegan

I have been a red customer almost from the beginning. I was in the line of early adopters who purchased the Red One then eventually upgraded to the MX sensor. I then purchased an Epic MX, and then another Epic MX which i upgraded to dragon. I have advocated for Red cameras for 7 years, I have been an evangelist and promoted and rented out red cameras in our rental market. I have helped people buy red cameras and consulted for them. So I have been an extremely loyal Red customer and brought them many customers.

Recently, we noticed some issues on our monitor where white lines would appear and sometimes the screen would go completely white along with other funny issues. So we shipped our camera to red for repair. Please note it was an intermittent problem at the time.

Fastforward to today where they have sent me an $11,000 repair bill from Red and they are claiming our sensor isn't working at all. Here are my issues with this scenario:


1.) If the camera was working intermittently when it was shipped to Red (but when Red checks it says there is no sensor readout), how can we trust that Red isn't just changing parts instead of spending time to identify perhaps a simpler issue, at my expense. Or even more cynical just pushing us to change the sensor to make money on it. At $9K I could buy an assortment of new cameras currently available in the market place.
2.) Why should it cost $9K for a dragon sensor when a Raven that supposedly uses the same sensor is cheaper than that for the entire camera?
3.) At a time where the Red cameras are so incredibly expensive compared to most of the other competition, how can the parts and repairs be so expensive? The bottom has fallen out of the rental market and very few people are renting these cameras in this market. Many producers are going for the smaller cameras instead because they can not longer see a quality difference to justify the expense of renting a Red camera. If I spend $30K + on a camera should i not expect it to perform more than a few years?
4.) I asked if it were possible to upgrade to weapon so that I would get a better value for money that paying for a new aging sensor, and I was told that I would have to have a camera in perfect working condition before I could upgrade.

Im sorry but this situation sucks! I have tried to find a middle ground with Red but they have approached me with a take it or leave it attitude.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Hi Dan,

Understand your points and there is a lot of variables come into play in regards tp repair cost and just because one thing cost a certain price doesn't mean it crosses over the complete product line (That would make things easier even for us

Let me look into this and get our head of support involved.

Someone will follow up with you.

Regards,

Keegan

This is why the RED team rocks!

 

[M.Halsell]

Team RED does rock, absolutely and certainly would like hope there is a cost correction. In the scheme of life a $11,000 repair bill for house, car, camera is still a congressional matter for most people.

 

[Kenneth C Merrill]

I had a very similar experience last week with my young (200? hour) Scarlet MX. I was experiencing vertical pixilated stripes--one frame in every clip--from a whole day of shooting. I immediately submitted a ticket, and Red told me to send in my camera for an inspection. They came back at me saying I needed the Sensor Board replaced: a $6500 repair! Considering the brain isn't worth more than $4K, I was about to just tell them to dump it in the trash. Luckily someone on these boards asked if I had used a checksum program to copy the footage the day I experienced problems. I hadn't! (long story--rest assured I usually do)

Fortunately I still had the footage from that day on the mag. I plugged it in and watched all the clips directly off the mag--NO PROBLEMS! Turns out the artifacts I was experiencing were due to user error: copying footage without a checksum.

I was very relieved but couldn't understand why Red techs would prescribe a $6500 repair if they were not able to replicate the problem (which they wouldn't have because there was NO PROBLEM with the camera to begin with). I sent an email to tech support, asking them that question, and they basically said that they put my camera through a bunch of tests, and they determined the artifacts I showed them were due to a bad sensor board. Ridiculous.

Needless to say, I retrieved my camera as quickly as possible. Shot some footage on it, and sure enough it works just fine.

TL;DR I'm suspicious of the testing they do at their repair facility.

 

[Kenneth C Merrill]

Too be fair, though. I was corresponding with the tech representative, not the techs themselves. To a certain extent, his response was probably standard issue.

 

[Stacey Spears]

ortunately I still had the footage from that day on the mag. I plugged it in and watched all the clips directly off the mag--NO PROBLEMS! Turns out the artifacts I was experiencing were due to user error: copying footage without a checksum.

Which OS were you using? File copy errors are generally considered recall class bugs, at least for Microsoft. Glad to hear that your issue was bad file copying though!

 

[Kenneth C Merrill]

[/COLOR]

Which OS were you using? File copy errors are generally considered recall class bugs, at least for Microsoft. Glad to hear that your issue was bad file copying though!

I'm on El Capitan. But I actually think it may be a hard drive issue. I had a similar glitch occur with some C100 footage just a few days later, and I've never had that happen before with their MTS files.
I don't use that drive anymore, just to be safe. Also, checksumming anything that I'm not willing to lose

 

[Tommaso Alvisi]

I'm on El Capitan. But I actually think it may be a hard drive issue. I had a similar glitch occur with some C100 footage just a few days later, and I've never had that happen before with their MTS files.
I don't use that drive anymore, just to be safe. Also, checksumming anything that I'm not willing to lose

Kenneth,

do a memtest...it could very well be your ram...it happened to me before...

 

[Tommaso Alvisi]

I had a very similar experience last week with my young (200? hour) Scarlet MX. I was experiencing vertical pixilated stripes--one frame in every clip--from a whole day of shooting. I immediately submitted a ticket, and Red told me to send in my camera for an inspection. They came back at me saying I needed the Sensor Board replaced: a $6500 repair! Considering the brain isn't worth more than $4K, I was about to just tell them to dump it in the trash. Luckily someone on these boards asked if I had used a checksum program to copy the footage the day I experienced problems. I hadn't! (long story--rest assured I usually do)

Fortunately I still had the footage from that day on the mag. I plugged it in and watched all the clips directly off the mag--NO PROBLEMS! Turns out the artifacts I was experiencing were due to user error: copying footage without a checksum.

I was very relieved but couldn't understand why Red techs would prescribe a $6500 repair if they were not able to replicate the problem (which they wouldn't have because there was NO PROBLEM with the camera to begin with). I sent an email to tech support, asking them that question, and they basically said that they put my camera through a bunch of tests, and they determined the artifacts I showed them were due to a bad sensor board. Ridiculous.

Needless to say, I retrieved my camera as quickly as possible. Shot some footage on it, and sure enough it works just fine.

TL;DR I'm suspicious of the testing they do at their repair facility.

This is REALLY SCARY...

I think you have to PM Jarred IMMEDIATELY and ask him about it, he can check what went wrong and hopefully this won't happen again...

 

[Dan McCain]

I had a very similar experience last week with my young (200? hour) Scarlet MX. I was experiencing vertical pixilated stripes--one frame in every clip--from a whole day of shooting. I immediately submitted a ticket, and Red told me to send in my camera for an inspection. They came back at me saying I needed the Sensor Board replaced: a $6500 repair! Considering the brain isn't worth more than $4K, I was about to just tell them to dump it in the trash. Luckily someone on these boards asked if I had used a checksum program to copy the footage the day I experienced problems. I hadn't! (long story--rest assured I usually do)

Fortunately I still had the footage from that day on the mag. I plugged it in and watched all the clips directly off the mag--NO PROBLEMS! Turns out the artifacts I was experiencing were due to user error: copying footage without a checksum.

I was very relieved but couldn't understand why Red techs would prescribe a $6500 repair if they were not able to replicate the problem (which they wouldn't have because there was NO PROBLEM with the camera to begin with). I sent an email to tech support, asking them that question, and they basically said that they put my camera through a bunch of tests, and they determined the artifacts I showed them were due to a bad sensor board. Ridiculous.

Needless to say, I retrieved my camera as quickly as possible. Shot some footage on it, and sure enough it works just fine.


TL;DR I'm suspicious of the testing they do at their repair facility.

Thank you so much for sharing your story. This type of thing is exactly what I am scared of, because the camera was working with a picture when it left here. It was having intermittent issues but didn't seem to me like a sensor was failing or anything very serious. But they are reporting that the sensor is not reading out any picture or signal which is not the case when it left here. I can not diagnose the issue myself because I am not qualified but something has felt funny about this diagnosis. They wanted to replace other boards for SDI output etc where we weren't even noticing any issues. I will wait to hear from Red if they have any other ideas about my issue, but spending $11,000 for the repair for the minor problem that I saw with the camera doesn't seem to add up.

I wonder if they still sell MX sensors and how much that would cost?

By the way i paid 7K to replace my sensor on the Redone years ago when a laser damaged it and killed the sensor, I was able to upgrade to the MX sensor and so at the time it was obvious the camera sensor was not working and I recognise what that looks like.

 

[Dan McCain]

So I would like to continue my complaint. We had a Red Rocket card go out a while ago. It finally got to Red and they are now asking me to replace it for $4500 because they can not repair it. So Right now if I am to fix my issues with Red products (Dragon and Red Rocket card that are both less than 3 years old) I am to spend around $14500! Is it that they have given up on trying to do repairs and are now just focused on selling the large items. This is serious and I would like an investigation! Why cant you repair my red rocket card?!?!

 

[Dan McCain]

Does anyone know of third party repair technicians that could look at the rocket card and dragon for me so that I can get a second opinion? I know there aren't officially sanctioned shops around but I would be willing to take my chances elsewhere.

 

[Kenneth C Merrill]

I wanted to follow up and let everyone know that Brent reached out to me today regarding my experience. It was a private message so I won't post it here, but I will say that he has restored a lot of confidence here in the Red Team. It's not often that a top-level guy at a camera company PM's someone having technical support issues. That's cool.