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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Backup and Tape device answers

Thanks Tim. I'll look into it. This process has taken ages. I have been getting error after error until finally realising the Scalar was dying. Quantum replaced it (amazing service) and now I can get back to evaluating Bru:)
 
Good Quantum Service! Excellent

Good Quantum Service! Excellent

bettsy said:
Thanks Tim. I'll look into it. This process has taken ages. I have been getting error after error until finally realising the Scalar was dying. Quantum replaced it (amazing service) and now I can get back to evaluating Bru:)
Click to expand...

That's highly unexpected as many others have received far from stellar support from Quantum/ADIC when coming from the Mac world. Maybe this is the start of a new leaf for Quantum!.

Is it just me, or are the new smilies a bit "odd"? :confused:

Tim
 
Got some info on the new LTO4a which will debut @ NAB:

http://www.cache-a.com/products.php

Rumor is that it will be bundled with some version of both HD-Logger and the Pictron stuff. We've had reasonable success with installing the LTO3a's, both the desktop and 16-tape SuperLoader units. There'll be no SuperLoader on the new 4a stuff. Mark Ostlund heads up Cache-a; he had been product manager for the 3a at Quantum, but left and licensed the rights to the new 800G/tape systems. The software is smart enough to keep track of media on multiple bar-coded tapes, so finding stuff 6 months down the road should be a snap.
 
Any indication on pricing from the Cache-A guys? If they're going to continue Quantum's pricing strategy on their A-Series units, then I'd expect market reception to be luke-warm at best. And only gig-E... Really?

Just my $0.03
 
Tim Jones said:
That's highly unexpected as many others have received far from stellar support from Quantum/ADIC when coming from the Mac world. Maybe this is the start of a new leaf for Quantum!.

Is it just me, or are the new smilies a bit "odd"? :confused:

Tim
Click to expand...
Yes, the new smilies are a bit odd.

Bear in mind, I'm in Australia and things are often topsy-turvy. Some other products I won't mention have great support stateside and total crap support downunder. Quantum in Oz come highly recommended (they're not Mac experts but are open and willing to learn). I might add that Bru here are also very good, if my conversations with Steve are any guide.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
Any indication on pricing from the Cache-A guys? If they're going to continue Quantum's pricing strategy on their A-Series units, then I'd expect market reception to be luke-warm at best. And only gig-E... Really?

Just my $0.03
Click to expand...

"Under $8K for the desktop unit."
 
k2director said:
What a great thread, this has been immensely helpful, so thanks to all parties that have contributed!

I have a question about the ATTO R380, any guidance much appreciated. I have a 2009 Mac Pro and I'm wondering if it's possible to use the ATTO in Raid 5 with a 4 drive enclosure (using only one of the ATTO's two ports for the RAID), and then use the second ATTO port to connect to an HP LTO4 drive.

Even better, I'm wondering if it's possible to get a magic splitter cable that lets me plug not only the LTO4 drive into the ATTO, but also an additional eSATA external hard drive (I would get one of those trayless hard drive docks where you can conveniently slip in a raw drive and it mounts immediately).

In other words, I'm trying to use one RAID card (the r380) to handle a 4 drive external raid, an LTO drive, and even a hot-swappable esata drive.

Any help appreciated, thanks much!
Click to expand...

Hi K2.D, YEs you can certainly do this. I too have a new MAC PRO 2009 Nehalem 2.93Ghz ATI 1840 config. I have the R380 and several LTO4 Ultrium tape drives.

I use:
  • ATTO TECH R380 in slot 2 ((x16 @ x8)
  • an LSI SAS3442E-R in SLOT 4 (x8 @ x4)

Simply I have an 8 x JBOD enclosure with 2 x SFF-8088 sockets (Same as the ATTO R380) and no SAS expander.

I have two x RAID) systems ([4 x 1TB] + [4 x 1TB]) so that I can unmount one to use is I need to hook up to the HP 1760 and/or the HP 1840 Ultrium LTO4 Ultrium SAS tape drives. I also hang a tape drive from the LSI SAS3442e-R as I need.

I'm unsure if you wanna look at the multi-cable SAS-eSATA harnesses and if you wanna mix them up. MAybe someone knows. YOu could try it.

Maybe look at a SAS expander and another smaller 4 x JOBOD enclosure. THese are really cheap now. Areca has some nice ones I saw yesterday. THese will plug into the R380 too.

Summary: yes you can easily run both a SAS LTO4 Ultrium tape drive & a RAID from the R380. Performance should not be degraded if at all if there are only a few devices on the lanes and (a few disks and a tape drive). HOwever difference results if you mix the tape drives with large blocksizes (1MB & 2MB) ON THE SAME PATHS as disks.. this is a no no ! .


PM or post if you have questions on this.

hth

w
 
quantums mac support?

quantums mac support?

bettsy said:
Thanks Tim. I'll look into it. This process has taken ages. I have been getting error after error until finally realising the Scalar was dying. Quantum replaced it (amazing service) and now I can get back to evaluating Bru:)
Click to expand...

good support from Quantum eh? Thats an oxymoron. Quantum think good MAC support is something you get together with a raincoat and a pair of tight underpants. Believe it when I see it. :err:

(yep and I bought one of their LTO4 HH SAS Ultrium tape drives)
 
sublimefilms said:
For proper throughput on 8 ports, but atto tech said they had not tried it in a 1x slot to see if it would function at all. You can use a 16x graphics card in the slot, 1 lane is more than enough for a 125MB/s lto transfer. Just a matter if the H380 is downward compatible or not.

Would be useful for field backups. Dont have a expressbox here to test.
Click to expand...
Tim will disagree I think, but ....FWIW, in my now dispatched 2007 8 x core MAC PRO (now replaced with Nehalem 2.93Ghz beast) I then tried both the ATTO EXPRESSAS R380 and the LSI SAS3442E-R HBA's in PCIE x1 ([config 3 and 4??? I cant recall) configs, with the HP1760, the HP 1840 and the Quantum HH SAS LTO4 ULtrium tape drives using BRU-BE archive.app and feeding and drinking from a 400MBsec disk array (on another HBA path)... and

There was only a small / appreciable difference (lower) in the performance of any of these SAS data tape drives using the same CONTENT (a large PRORES 422 object).

Summary: if you have to then you can try the ULtrium LTO4 SAS tape drive hanging from a PCIE HBA in a x1 slot.

THe same cannot be said for the newer Ultrium LTO5 tape drives when they appear later this year at a 220MB/sec+ uncompressed data rate.

hth

w
 
warwickt said:
Tim will disagree I think, but ....
Click to expand...

My only concern is the vendors themselves don't support the x1 lane configurations. The 1x Lane is capable of delivering enough data to keep an LTO-3 or LTO-4 fed pretty well. However, I've seen a lot of devices work when you wouldn't expect them to :). So the ruling of YMMV is apropos in this case.

We've got one user that unearthed an old Ratoc FW to SCSI adapter (circa 2000), plugged in a SCSI AIT-2 drive and it worked with BRU PE right off the bat.

Tim
 
Tim Jones said:
My only concern is the vendors themselves don't support the x1 lane configurations. The 1x Lane is capable of delivering enough data to keep an LTO-3 or LTO-4 fed pretty well. However, I've seen a lot of devices work when you wouldn't expect them to :). So the ruling of YMMV is apropos in this case.

We've got one user that unearthed an old Ratoc FW to SCSI adapter (circa 2000), plugged in a SCSI AIT-2 drive and it worked with BRU PE right off the bat.

Tim
Click to expand...

point taken :)
 
"LTO"4A for $USD8000! - from a financial perspective that's

"LTO"4A for $USD8000! - from a financial perspective that's

Matt Gottshalk said:
"Under $8K for the desktop unit."
Click to expand...

Hi Matt, Hmmm for $USD8000 eh? - is this price WITH or WITHOUT the robotic attachment for various tape libraries... ? (not with any gold inlay)

I'm just curious on the business value I get for my $USD8000 aside from the fact I can plug it in remotely into my MacbookPro with slow IPoE or SATA (nice) as long as I have a 220/110v wall power in the field or the car.....

If I examine this financially (business value) and see what MAC based content archive working options consist today for this money that use Archive/ Recall solutions ULtrium LTO4 tape drive I wonder what the value of this really is. IS it such an advantage for the mainstream workflow?

So with the price mooted: Cache-A LTO-3A Desktop Solution: $7,999 (or thereabouts).. "LTO"-4A?

Let's see what else I can do with this $USD8000 that is faster and cheaper. I buy :
  • a new 2009 Nehalem Mac Pro: $USD2,500
  • ARECA ARC-130004X PCIE SAS HBA (mac driver) $USD120... yes the ARECA card works on a MACPRO 2009 and works with HP and QUANTUM SAS LTO$ SAS tape drives (or ATTO H380 - say @ $USD300)
  • LTO4 Ultrium SAS tape drive - $USD2500
  • 15 x Ultrium LTO4 data Tapes: $USD750 (or less where I buy them)
  • Tolisgroups BRU-PE (producers Edition) : $USD499
  • oh! and dont forget a 1m SFF-8088 to SFF-8088 sas multilane cable @ $USD63 (or less)

That comes to only $USD6,432 ! wah! .. using the ARECA SAS PCI HBA (yep this work on a MACPRO with SAS LTO tape drives), and let's say an HP1760 LTO4 Ultrium SAS tape drive.

Hmm. thats good value vs. the total cost of this single "A" type proprietary "LTO"-A tape device

With LTO4 Ultrium data tape drive archive solution and this set up listed above (and other people & myself are using now on OSX), I achieve actual archival performance: 105MB/sec -110MB/sec uncompressed
(caveates apply to the storage vessel for source and target paths and access data rates,and the physical size of the content, blocksize etc).

with the right SAS HBA and software (SAy BRU-PE) I can also select the larger blocksizes (1m, 2@M, 4MB) which has a positive impact on archive performance for large objects (R3D mags, P2, PRORES 422, DHxHD etc) used by use types in creative land.

While the network connectivity of the A series devices looks cool and useful for some in the field, the price-point sure isn't when for less money we can buy a whole new Mac Pro and associated hardware and software and get LTO-4 capacity and performance for archival.

More about the A series devices and some reasons others and myself wont use these proprietary Quantum A series (SDLT600a, "LTO"3A).. all the same). :

  • its after all still a tape drive, so even though for those that are connected via the network, it is still serially reusable can only be truly accessed by one transaction / workflow component at a time
  • the 50MB/sec rate assumes no other activity on the network. Agree that SATA attachment is faster and would like to see some real numbers on this for the "LTO"4A model using real content not I.T. files
  • despite the content type, the hybrid MXF and in a hybrid "tar" format, application access natively or directly on an OSX system limited when using the device on OSX.

Alternatively/Option C: I suppose if I had this kind of money to spend on a "LTO4" type device (which I dont) , I could certainly wait a few months and get say the newer Ultrium LTO5 SAS or FC data tapes for far less a price thamn the one under discussion here and I can also buy the infrastructure (hardware and .apps) to use it.

Lastly with Ultrium LTO5 (2009 late) I will get a conservative 220MB/sec UNCOMPRESSED using a newer PCIE HBA and 1.6TB uncompressed for far less money than this hyprid "A" model that few people will have or likley cannot exchange material easily with.

just curious:biggrin:

NO flaming intended.

fwiw.

w
 
"LTO"-A series CACHE-A update: Interestingly I attended Apple and Red sponsored event at Shaw Bros studios here in Hong Kong yesterday where one of the solution partners called Jadason Technologies were reselling the Cache-A appliances. Only paper and localised copies of their offerings were available. They claim they are working on .. and wait for it "RD3" .. (typo) they mean R3D I hope... asides from some typos it provides a good insight into to what the $USD8K price tag is all about.

AS curious as I was about the reasons for the relatively hefty price of these "A" storage devices I went and asked these guys why these devices were quite expensive in price compared to the actual Ultrium LTO FC and SAS Ultrium LTO counterparts. Here's a summary of the conversation with the main sales guy:

• he had no idea of the price. CLearly he was surprised when I said they are listed at nearly $USD8K. He couldn't tell me what prices were for what devices. Perhaps an unfair criticism as maybe they just joined up as distributors. However he should have known in this in a place where there was a ready potential market of 200+ people that are RED users with FCP.
• they had no ideas about host bus adapters and tape drives in general, so this was clearly a new solution for these guys.
• doesn't seem like they even have any in stock or demo
• usual sales rhetoric about how good it was (accepted).
• looks like the price is for an appliance as an offering of a TAPE DRIVE and DISK CACHE appliance over a NAS. - I guess I can see now where the price is. Also models of twin drives in a case desktop and a 2-3u rack mounted flavour with 4TB of disk with stereo tape drives.
• USB and IPoE attachment only. (So really slow compared to what I can see is needed for large objects archive and recall)
• he clearly no idea what FINAL CUT SERVER was either (an apple solutions partner?)... I though they could connect seamless to this as well.. perhaps like DAX might today (Any one know?)

This has been done before by people like BreeceHill and others with SONY SAIT1 I recall. (IPoE as well using NFS or CIFS) - so very slow at the host entry and exit... but fast internally.

OK maybe all this is a bit harsh of a sledge but know I can see where the $USD8000 is targetted. Good solution if it only had the same archive and recall speeds on a MACOSX archiving solution that we enjoy today with ULtrium LTO4.... I shall be checking CACHE-A out at NAB in a few weeks. I hope they are there.

Also SGL FLASHBOX™ has an appliance with disk cache and a robotics for 10 Ultrium tape drives I think I saw at NAB last year and as the certified AVID TM (transfer manager interface) implemented.. I suspect others are out there.

FWIW, I'll stick with the real Ultrium LTO4 and hopefully late 2009+ LTO5 (backward compatable ofcourse) with the much faster archive access (data rates), open architecture, much great economic efficiencies (price) and much higher capacities with Ultrium LTO5.

fwiw
w
 
Hi Warwickt. Tom Goldberg, VP Product Dev at Cache-A here - I'd like to jump in and address some of your points...

warwickt said:
Hi Matt, Hmmm for $USD8000 eh? - is this price WITH or WITHOUT the robotic attachment for various tape libraries... ? (not with any gold inlay)<...>
So with the price mooted: Cache-A LTO-3A Desktop Solution: $7,999 (or thereabouts).. "LTO"-4A?

Let's see what else I can do with this $USD8000 that is faster and cheaper. I buy :
  • a new 2009 Nehalem Mac Pro: $USD2,500
  • ARECA ARC-130004X PCIE SAS HBA (mac driver) $USD120... yes the ARECA card works on a MACPRO 2009 and works with HP and QUANTUM SAS LTO$ SAS tape drives (or ATTO H380 - say @ $USD300)
  • LTO4 Ultrium SAS tape drive - $USD2500
  • 15 x Ultrium LTO4 data Tapes: $USD750 (or less where I buy them)
  • Tolisgroups BRU-PE (producers Edition) : $USD499
  • oh! and dont forget a 1m SFF-8088 to SFF-8088 sas multilane cable @ $USD63 (or less)

That comes to only $USD6,432 ! wah! .. using the ARECA SAS PCI HBA (yep this work on a MACPRO with SAS LTO tape drives), and let's say an HP1760 LTO4 Ultrium SAS tape drive.
Click to expand...

If you want to put all that stuff together, configure and maintain it, you can certainly save yourself $1500 vs. our product. Although you will not end up with the same thing, it may meet your needs. I would ask how long it would take you to source, assemble, load software, configure and test such a solution and how much your time is worth.

Our solution has a range of additional capabilities and value propositions some of which you address in your second post but I'd like to point out a few you've missed. Built-in automated backups, built-in searchable database of every tape the device has ever seen - built-in database sharing so multiple drives on the network can share contents - internal disk drive cacheing to allow multi-user access to the tape drive - all in a single small but powerful, easy-to-deploy box.

And, oh yeah, portable media. Anyone with a Cache-A system can access the tape's directory and treat archival data tapes like a disk as far as seeing what is on it or searching for file data or content metadata (more about that below).

warwickt said:
Hmm. thats good value vs. the total cost of this single "A" type proprietary "LTO"-A tape device
Click to expand...

Our solution, unlike the Quantum LTO-3A is no longer proprietary. We write standard tar files with standard LTO-4 drives. The directory file on each tape we maintain to help us track contents and metadata is proprietary, but anyone can use any POSIX tar solution to restore any data we write on any tape.

warwickt said:
With LTO4 Ultrium data tape drive archive solution and this set up listed above (and other people & myself are using now on OSX), I achieve actual archival performance: 105MB/sec -110MB/sec uncompressed (caveates apply to the storage vessel for source and target paths and access data rates,and the physical size of the content, blocksize etc). with the right SAS HBA and software (SAy BRU-PE) I can also select the larger blocksizes (1m, 2@M, 4MB) which has a positive impact on archive performance for large objects (R3D mags, P2, PRORES 422, DHxHD etc) used by use types in creative land.
Click to expand...

This is a good trick given that HP says their 1760 drive is only capable of 80MB/s...

Our quoted rate of 50MB/s is indeed over a network with FTP. Note that we are still in development and have seen much faster rates in our lab, just not ready to commit to them. We will also be supporting direct connected devices which, of course, will be faster yet. Will it be as fast as your package? I doubt it. Will it be more convenient, easier to setup, deploy, and use as well as have other benefits? I very much believe so.

warwickt said:
"LTO"-A series CACHE-A update: Interestingly I attended Apple and Red sponsored event at Shaw Bros studios here in Hong Kong yesterday where one of the solution partners called Jadason Technologies were reselling the Cache-A appliances. Only paper and localised copies of their offerings were available. They claim they are working on .. and wait for it "RD3" .. (typo) they mean R3D I hope... asides from some typos it provides a good insight into to what the $USD8K price tag is all about.
Click to expand...

Sorry about the r3d typo :embarrassed: - yes, we do intend to carry forward the Quantum idea of making our systems "content aware" and keeping metadata about media file types in the directory and internal database. Our plans include .mxf as Quantum did, and adding .mov and .r3d as well. These will not be in the product initially and may be priced separately.

warwickt said:
• he had no idea of the price. CLearly he was surprised when I said they are listed at nearly $USD8K. He couldn't tell me what prices were for what devices. Perhaps an unfair criticism as maybe they just joined up as distributors. However he should have known in this in a place where there was a ready potential market of 200+ people that are RED users with FCP.
• they had no ideas about host bus adapters and tape drives in general, so this was clearly a new solution for these guys.
• doesn't seem like they even have any in stock or demo
• usual sales rhetoric about how good it was (accepted).
• looks like the price is for an appliance as an offering of a TAPE DRIVE and DISK CACHE appliance over a NAS. - I guess I can see now where the price is. Also models of twin drives in a case desktop and a 2-3u rack mounted flavour with 4TB of disk with stereo tape drives.
• USB and IPoE attachment only. (So really slow compared to what I can see is needed for large objects archive and recall)
• he clearly no idea what FINAL CUT SERVER was either (an apple solutions partner?)... I though they could connect seamless to this as well.. perhaps like DAX might today (Any one know?)
Click to expand...

I don't know this dealer and he must have been working from our very first and very preliminary cut sheet - updated specs on our first product are on our site Click Here

Of course they wouldn't have stock or demos because we are still in development. We expect to be showing preproduction units next month at NAB (booth SL9605) with shipments commencing the end of May.

Dual drive and RAID models not expected to be shipping until year-end.

USB and GbE are the only interfaces planned initially, but we are looking at direct attach PCMCIA, ExpressCard32, 1394 Firewire, and eSATA.

This dealer's ignorance of FCS is not ours - we will be working with Apple and are in discussions with a host of others software vendors, including DAX. Expect to see one of our systems in the SquareBox CatDV booth as well as Panasonic's and possibly others...

I certainly don't take your post as a flame and appreciate the opportunity to respond:cool:
 
Hi Warwickt,

Thanks a lot for the response. I am definitely leaning towards the R380, or maybe waiting for the R680...although a couple of people I spoke to at ATTO weren't even aware of it, so who knows when that's going to arrive.
I'll let you know what I end up with, thanks!
 
Hi guys, what options there is to hook an old G4 466mhz (digital audio) to a LTO-3 tape drive? Any HP and ATTO options?

We have one doing nothing and we'd like to put it to use. Might not be the fastest, but speed isn't mission critical.

Would BRU LE work on such a machine? Is the 250GB limit suggested or a real limitation of the software?

Thanks.
 
Tim Jones said:
Hi Dominique,

You can use the ACARD or ATTO PCIx options described in this thread http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=28174.

But, be aware that while the LTO-3you'll probably top out at around 40MB/sec max on that system.
Click to expand...

Hi Tim,

As far as I know, the G4 we have only have PCI slots, not PCI-X. Would that still work? Or maybe there's something I don't quite get with those standards...

Regarding the speed, we are aware that there will be a bottleneck in our system, but we are OK with them for now.

Thanks!
 
Dominique Grenier said:
Hi Tim,

As far as I know, the G4 we have only have PCI slots, not PCI-X. Would that still work? Or maybe there's something I don't quite get with those standards...
Click to expand...
PCIx slots are basically 64bit, 66MHz or 133MHz PCI slots and Most PCIx cards will play nicely in a 32bit PCI slot. Both the ACARD and ATTO HBAs mentioned are fine in a 32bit PCI slot. However, in this case I'd choose the ACARD simply because of the cost difference (~US$75).

Here's a great page that describes the differences (and similarities) of the PCI, PCIx, and PCI-E bus and slot definitions:

PCI vs PCI-X vs PCI-E

Tim
 
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