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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Backup and Tape device answers

Thanks!

Thanks!

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Dave.

I'd like to also make sure that you all know that we strive to make our products more in line with what our users need, so please don't hesitate to report issues and make feature requests. We're an old-world Unix house and if we had things our way, we'd all still just be using the command line :matrix: . It's user feedback that helps us make the move to the next release of our products.

Tim
 
Thanks for the replies. How 'bout this scenario--We currently have 3 PC systems and 2 MacBook Pro systems. We're planning on adding 2 Mac Towers in the next year, but need some archiving now.

How much is involved getting LTO4 system running on PC now, then moving it over to the Mac world later this year? For example, does this require 2 different sets of BRU software or can I use BRU with the PC and then later on with the Mac?

Thanks again,

Paul
 
Hi there.
I'm trying to set up a tape backup system on my Dual 2.0 ghz G5.
Here's what I have...

Dual 2ghz G5 with 4 gb ram.
OS X server 10.5.4
Atto UL4d scsi card
HP1760 LTO 4 drive.

Bru LE trial
Bru Server (bought)
Retrospect (trial)

We've also been experimenting with a range of drives to back up to tape from.
These include:

An internal SATA drive.
Firewire 800
Highpoint 2224 card with 4 sata drives striped together.
Glyph 4 x 20gb SCSI drive connected to UL4d.

We've tried all of these as sources, one at a time, installing and uninstalling drivers as appropriate. We're not getting better than 29mb/s transfer rate to the LTO 4.
From any of them.

I've been in touch with Bru support 3 times.
I've run their speedtest script and got no difference in speed, regardless of block and buffer size.

I've talked to ATTO support. Updated drivers.
I've changed cables.

Nothing seems to make it go any quicker, and it seems to be writing with that pattern they call 'shoeshining'. Drive stop, seeks, writes, repeat.

One clue, in the console window, while running retrospect, we seem to be getting a lot of errors relating to scsi commands and retrospect engine.

Any ideas where our bottleneck is?
 
Use the Mac now!

Use the Mac now!

paul engstrom said:
Thanks for the replies. How 'bout this scenario--We currently have 3 PC systems and 2 MacBook Pro systems. We're planning on adding 2 Mac Towers in the next year, but need some archiving now.

How much is involved getting LTO4 system running on PC now, then moving it over to the Mac world later this year? For example, does this require 2 different sets of BRU software or can I use BRU with the PC and then later on with the Mac?
Click to expand...

Why not look at BRU Server? You move the hardware to one of the Macs and then backup all systems (regardless of OS) as clients? You can see more about this at www.bru.com/products/bruserver. And, all tapes are compatible with BRU PE and vice versa).
 
Definitely not right

Definitely not right

marcus lyall said:
Hi there.
We've tried all of these as sources, one at a time, installing and uninstalling drivers as appropriate. We're not getting better than 29mb/s transfer rate to the LTO 4.
From any of them.

I've been in touch with Bru support 3 times.
I've run their speedtest script and got no difference in speed, regardless of block and buffer size.
Click to expand...

I'd start with the types of data that you're backing up. If it's Video, you should easily achieve 80-100MB/sec with your setup from the standalone SATA and HighPoint RAID (we love their disk stuff). However, if you're backing up a million email files... the filesystem is definitely your bottleneck.

With BRU Server, there are 2 settings that you should change - Blocksize and Write Cache. I know that the GUI Console only allows you to set the value up to 512K, but you can exceed that via a command line option. And the Write Cache should be set to 512MB for LTO-4. Support can give you details as I don't want to turn this into a BRU support thread :shiftyph34r: .

The errors that you are seeing in Retrospect can only be traced to Retrospect. They use their own device drivers rather than the mechanism provided by Apple in the kernel. When you run either BRU product, check the /private/var/log/system.log file for errors. You can look into that file using the /Applications/Utilities/Console.app. My suspicion is that you won't see any kernel-generated SCSI errors with BRU.

Also, since you're a Highpoint customer, please contact them and submit a feature request for tape pass-through support on their SATA/SAS controllers. The more of us that ask, the more likely we are to see it happen :).


Hope that helps,
TIm
 
I have read through this thread and I think that I want to get an LTO-3 system. I would like to use a G4 Mac to run my backups. ( its an extra computer that can focus on that task alone )

I have a G4 MDD with an Ultra 320 Atto SCSI card.

I can use any OSX version on this system.

My source material will be from an external FW800 drive.

Any recommendations as to what LTO-3 drive to get? Will the BRU-LE software work?

Thanks!
 
Rick,

A G4 will run the LTO-3 drive just fine. An external FW800 drive as your source may be a bit slow, so you won't get full performance out of that, but then again, that may not be necessary. If you were going for all-out speed, you wouldn't be choosing this configuration.

I know that Retrospect 6 will support your configuration, but I would highly recommend against using that software. It just isn't very robust and it's terribly inefficient. I thnk the newest Retrospect X is Intel only anyway.

BRU is universal and supports PPC, but I don't know to what extent it will operate on the older G4 systems. I guess Tim could answer that or you could download a demo copy and try it out.
 
Thanks! Yes, all out speed it not super important. However I need something faster than a BLU-RAY archive setup.

Now I just need to pick an LTO-3 drive that will work best.

Thanks for your reply.

-rick
 
Hello Jeff,

Do you know how long these LTO tapes last? Bluray archive manufacturer is saying the tape only last about 5 years. I don't think, so, hope not.
 
Archive issue - back-up LTO versus Blu Ray

Archive issue - back-up LTO versus Blu Ray

Dear Tim and Jeff,

We are shooting a feature film on RED, and editing on Final Cut with a G5 and a Mac Pro laptop. I am dubious about something. What are the pros and cons for backing up on LTO versus Blu Ray.

The Blu Ray seems to be cheaper, but what are the less obvious downfalls? Or is the LTO now the absolute standard in the business?

Also I have heard that once you have started recording on an LTO tape, you cant add material afterwards. Is that true?

How prone are these devises to malfunctioning - becasue if we have to send it for maintenance in the middle of shooting or post-prod. this might be a big hassle.

Also, since we plan to shoot in another country and we have to bring the back-up system with us (because of insurance) - do you think the LTO might break down, because of the traveling?

It would be great if you can help. Thanks in advance.
 
Tim -

Finally received the last link - ATTO ESAS H-380 card. Installed drivers and card, attached HP 1760 SAS drive with Tirpp Lite S5240-01M cable, installed BRU Server and Agent software on Mac Pro and it all works like a champ! It shows 86MB/Sec going to archive. And I can also backup my PC workstation. Thanks for all the great recommendations and information from you and the input from others that made this such a simple task. I'm sure you saved me hours and $$$ of frustration.

Mike
 
"
Tim Jones said:
I'd start with the types of data that you're backing up. If it's Video, you should easily achieve 80-100MB/sec with your setup from the standalone SATA and HighPoint RAID (we love their disk stuff). However, if you're backing up a million email files... the filesystem is definitely your bottleneck."


It's almost all video data. Big Quicktime movies. So that ain't it.

"The errors that you are seeing in Retrospect can only be traced to Retrospect. They use their own device drivers rather than the mechanism provided by Apple in the kernel. When you run either BRU product, check the /private/var/log/system.log file for errors. You can look into that file using the /Applications/Utilities/Console.app. My suspicion is that you won't see any kernel-generated SCSI errors with BRU.


I think we were getting some scsi errors in the console using bru too.

The speedtest script gave us no 'bellcurve' when setting block and buffer size. It was more or less flat at 29mb/s for any combination.

We also tried a different SCSI card (ATTO ul4s) and a different G5.
And got the same results.

Wondering if there's any driver issues with ATTO, G5 and HP Ultrium?
Just can't get this going any faster.

Next thing was to try putting a scsi card into an intel mac and seeing if we get better speed on that.

Any ideas of other things to try before splashing out on another scsi card?


Thanks for your advice so far...
Click to expand...
 
office@sif309 said:
Dear Tim and Jeff,

We are shooting a feature film on RED, and editing on Final Cut with a G5 and a Mac Pro laptop. I am dubious about something. What are the pros and cons for backing up on LTO versus Blu Ray.

The Blu Ray seems to be cheaper, but what are the less obvious downfalls? Or is the LTO now the absolute standard in the business?
Click to expand...

How are you coming to the conclusion that Blu-Ray is cheaper? I would think that by the time you archive 50TB or more, the costs of Blu-Ray would eat you alive. Cheapest I've seen 25GB BD-R media is about $3.09 each in a 100-spindle. So that's $309 for 2.5TB spread of 100 pieces of media to manage. Which is roughly $0.124 per GB.

800GB LTO-4 is $50 each in packs of 20. So that's $1000 for 16TB spread across 20 pieces of media to manage. Which is roughly $0.0625.

LTO-4 is half the cost per GB vs. Blu-Ray and will take up a lot less shelf space.

Also I have heard that once you have started recording on an LTO tape, you cant add material afterwards. Is that true?
Click to expand...

No. But this comes down to software and how you go about archiving your data. You can always add more stuff to a backup queue and append more data onto the end of a tape if there is still room. Think of it much like writing an optical disc. It's hard to juggle files around once they're queued up for burning to a disc. But just like a multi-session disc, you can place multiple backup sets or archival volumes onto a single tape. Another common misconception is that you can't retrieve individual files from a backup. Not true.

How prone are these devises to malfunctioning - becasue if we have to send it for maintenance in the middle of shooting or post-prod. this might be a big hassle.
Click to expand...

Like any mechanical contraption with moving parts and sensitive electronic circuitry, it can fail. But LTO drives are very common, easily replaced on a moments noticed. I suppose the same could be said of a Blu-Ray writer. Personally, I haven't had any such troubles with either.

Also, since we plan to shoot in another country and we have to bring the back-up system with us (because of insurance) - do you think the LTO might break down, because of the traveling?
Click to expand...

Anything is possible. Just pack and transport it properly and it should be fine. In most cases the drives will travel halfway around the world when you buy them, I don't see a reason why they can't travel again when you need to move them. IMO, I would feel more comfortable about transporting an LTO-4 tape drive than I would about transporting hard drives containing data. And I don't see where a Blu-Ray drive is going to be any more robust in a travel situation.

In a remote shooting situation, especially when traveling to another country, I recommend having multiple backup solutions in place and various levels of backups. I typically, even when working locally, make it a habit of offloading to a RAID system where I have some redundancy built-in. Either a RAID-1 mirror or RAID-5. I typically don't dump anything until to LTO until I have multiple copies spread across a few hard drive systems. I also don't clear any camera media until I have two copies of the footage I'm offloading.

LTO is great for archival. But it's not something you will be writing to directly on-set or on-location in most situations. But needs differ and I can see where doing so could be beneficial, it's just not going to be very common.
 
Kaku Ito said:
Wow, 40 years.
Click to expand...
And that's a conservative estimate. Lab tests by other organizations indicate that a properly stored LTO tape will still be viable in 80 to 100 years.

But the big point is that the Blu-Ray consortium wants you to buy THEIR technology :nuke:

Tim
 
Blu-Ray for archival - not at 6MB/sec...

Blu-Ray for archival - not at 6MB/sec...

office@sif309 said:
We are shooting a feature film on RED, and editing on Final Cut with a G5 and a Mac Pro laptop. I am dubious about something. What are the pros and cons for backing up on LTO versus Blu Ray.

The Blu Ray seems to be cheaper, but what are the less obvious downfalls? Or is the LTO now the absolute standard in the business?
Click to expand...
Cheaper??? At ~35GB/platter and 6MB/sec - what's your time worth? LTO-4 can handle 800GB per tape at 100MB/sec or faster. Since the HD Color corrected frames for a 43 minute TV show adds up to around 800GB, be sure to take into consideration the time you're going to spend switching Blu-ray disks and waiting for the writes... We're talking around 3 hours of unattended time for the LTO-4 or 35 hours for Blu-Ray :whistling:

Also I have heard that once you have started recording on an LTO tape, you cant add material afterwards. Is that true?
Click to expand...
Absolutely false (don't you LOVE marketing spin?). Any reasonable backup/archival solution will allow you to append data to an existing tape. Heck, you can even append to WORM media.

How prone are these devices to malfunctioning - because if we have to send it for maintenance in the middle of shooting or post-prod. this might be a big hassle.
Click to expand...
Our HP, IBM, Quantum, and Tandberg examples all have 100's if not 1,000's of hours of very hard use. We've had 2 drive failures in the last 4 years and the vendor's are very keen on keeping you up and online, so they'll cross ship a replacement drive. However, as with any critical piece of equipment - a spare on the shelf means the main unit will never fail :)

Also, since we plan to shoot in another country and we have to bring the back-up system with us (because of insurance) - do you think the LTO might break down, because of the traveling?
Click to expand...
Not at all. We have gigging users that travel with a half-rack filled with 2 Xserves, a dual LTO-3 1U tape unit, and 2 Xserve RAID units. While both Xserves and one of the RAID units have failed because of the roadie handling, the tape drives just keep right on chugging.

It is my strong suspicion that anyone looking at serious archival needs in a traveling environment would get seriously tired of the disk-swap-tango involved with optical media and either paying an "intern" to swap the disks or staying up late to do it themselves. While an LTO-3 or LTO-4 solution may cost more in simple dollars, the "intern hours" will add up very rapidly, destroying any savings in the initial costs. And, if you look at automation, you'll find that Blu-Ray's (ne ANY optical media) pricing advantage dissipates rapidly.
 
G4 is fine

G4 is fine

Jeff Kilgroe said:
BRU is universal and supports PPC, but I don't know to what extent it will operate on the older G4 systems. I guess Tim could answer that or you could download a demo copy and try it out.
Click to expand...

Additionally, BRU won't leave you stranded between versions. Our latest version (17.1) will still restore/recall data that was written with our 6.11 version from 1988...

The G4 will do fine with BRU, but - as Jeff mentioned - performance will be hit because of the FW disk. You'll probably max that out at around 40MB/second or so to the LTO drive. The only thing to watch is to stay away from OS X 10.4.9 or 10.4.10. We recommend 10.4.11 or 10.3.9 for these systems.

In fact, we have a LOT of customers that are turning the 1GHz+ G4's into BRU Server servers. Because BRU doesn't require 4 processors and 8GB of RAM, using BRU Server means that you can extend those old systems' life expectancies for quite a few more years. In fact, we have one customer using a G4 iMac (the unit with the half ball base) with a G-Technologies FW 1TB RAID unit to provide disk-based backup services to their 5 person ad firm.

Tim
 
Bru Producerʻs Edition

Bru Producerʻs Edition

Hi Tim,

Just discovered this thread and itʻs great! Glad youʻre here.
Been using Bru server for the past couple of years and it works well, however Iʻm REALLY looking forward to Bru PE--how much longer will we have to wait?

You mentioned in an earlier post itʻs coming soon--how soon? This year? Q1, Q2? Weʻre ready to try it and probably buy it, but Iʻm getting impatient! :biggrin:

Thanks,

--Joe
 
Now THAT'S service! Thanks we will definitely check-out PE. Thanks Tim!
--Joe
 
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