Backup and Tape device answers

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Warwik/Tim/Jeff/Experts,
I got my HP LTO4 1840 yesterday. Unfortunately, my producer has ordered SCSI (EH854A) instead of SAS(EH861A). I had already bought SAS HBA and 8088 cable. I plan to return these and get an Ultra 320 SCSI PCI-X card (http://tekserve.com/products/420/Cards_Adapters/37472).
My only concern is would there be a huge difference in performance/speed in using SCSI compared to SAS based system ? I will be using these with Mac Pro and Bru LE.

You won't see any performance difference between SAS and SCSI. LTO-4 tops out about 120MB/s, which isn't anywhere near close to maximizing a SAS or UW SCSI connection.

YOU DO NOT WANT THAT SCSI CARD you have linked to. It's an older card and PCI-X too. Won't even work in the Mac Pro. Mac Pro systems are all PCI-E.

This one would be the right one for the Mac Pro. But is overkill just for connecting a tape drive, tekserve's price isn't that good, either:
http://tekserve.com/products/386/Cards_Adapters/22910

If you need to send something back, why not return the SCSI drive and get the SAS model? What SAS HBA did you purchase?

 

[Scott Mason]

Tim and Jeff-

Do you folks know of any software that will allow me to retrieve my files off an LTO3A tape. I'll explain my workflow that is working very well for me.

I copy my files to an archive drive and place them into a folder named LTO001 etc. I import those files into Final Cut Server and catalog them. I tell Final Cut Server to Archive them (It moves the _M files which I cataloged to my specified archive) and I delete the folder (I have made 2 LTO tapes of the one folder Now I search Final Cut Server and I find a file I want. It has the specific path of the folder for me so I know which tape it was on. I want to plug that path into something and have it copy only those files back off the tape. I use the GUI supplied from quantum and it won't take the path. My punt is I restore the entire tape and all is well. But if I could just grab the files I need that would be great (I can do it manually but the set it and forget it aspect of restoring the whole tape is so much better on my brain

Mahalo for any insight (P.S. we used a ton of MXF files in the path so we are very happy with the A series, I understand your concerns and we may migrate to 4 in the future, but for now we are on the A series)

Scott

 

[Michael Mayda]

Well, Tim, your plan for world domination spreads. I just ordered the HP 1760 and Atto H380 from ProVantage. I'll let y'all know how it works on my Mac Pro 8-core when I get it set up. Also plan to use BRU Server. Thank you and everyone else for posting your advice on RedUser.

Cheers,
Mike

 

[warwickt]

Well, Tim, your plan for world domination spreads. I just ordered the HP 1760 and Atto H380 from ProVantage. I'll let y'all know how it works on my Mac Pro 8-core when I get it set up. Also plan to use BRU Server. Thank you and everyone else for posting your advice on RedUser.

Cheers,
Mike

Congrats Micheal! you wont regret your choices.

Gong Si Fa CAi | Gong Hey Fat Choy

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Do you folks know of any software that will allow me to retrieve my files off an LTO3A tape.

There is nothing at this point. Quantum has not opened up or licensed their A-series tape format. I'm hoping they will open it up at some point. I suppose someone could reverse-engineer the format and make their own software to read it, but it's not something that could be openly distributed.

 

[mpallikonda]

You won't see any performance difference between SAS and SCSI. LTO-4 tops out about 120MB/s, which isn't anywhere near close to maximizing a SAS or UW SCSI connection.

YOU DO NOT WANT THAT SCSI CARD you have linked to. It's an older card and PCI-X too. Won't even work in the Mac Pro. Mac Pro systems are all PCI-E.

This one would be the right one for the Mac Pro. But is overkill just for connecting a tape drive, tekserve's price isn't that good, either:
http://tekserve.com/products/386/Cards_Adapters/22910

If you need to send something back, why not return the SCSI drive and get the SAS model? What SAS HBA did you purchase?

Jeff,
Thanks for the advice. Unfortunately, I don't have time to send back and get a SAS drive and hence this alternative. I bought the following for the SAS drive,

1m Sas Cable External Mini Sff-8088/sff-8088
Lsi Logic Sas3442e-R Raid 8port Pcie 3gb/ S 4 Int 4 Ext 8470 Lp

Murali

 

[Tim Jones]

Well, Tim, your plan for world domination spreads. I just ordered the HP 1760 and Atto H380 from ProVantage. I'll let y'all know how it works on my Mac Pro 8-core when I get it set up. Also plan to use BRU Server. Thank you and everyone else for posting your advice on RedUser.

Thanks, Mike. Also note that BRU Server 1.3.0 is in the wings awaiting our BRU Producer's Edition release (this week??). We're shooting for a February release of Server 1.3.0. If you're just purchasing BRU Server 1.2.0, your upgrade will be free.

You'll love the performance of the combination. One tip - set the Drive Blocksize to 512K and the Server Write Cache to at lease 256MB - those are accessed from the Device Configuration panel of the Tools tab.

Tim

 

[Tim Jones]

Do you folks know of any software that will allow me to retrieve my files off an LTO3A tape. I'll explain my workflow that is working very well for me.

Hi Scott, Both BRU PE/LE and BRU Server will see the contents of your LTO-3A media as a normal disk data source - much the same way that Finder sees them. Therefore, by loading the LTO-3A tape and making it available on your desktop, BRU will happily backup/archive the data on your LTO-3A tapes to another, standard tape drive or disk archive location. One thing that using BRU is the manner provides - you can read and restore the archived data onto any BRU platform (all of our archives are compatible across all platforms and are readable by all current and future versions of BRU software).

And, even though I've not tried them, many other file-by-file backup and archival tools should also allow you to process the 3A volumes in this manner - YMMV :innocent: .

Tim

 

[Tim Jones]

Thanks for the advice. Unfortunately, I don't have time to send back and get a SAS drive and hence this alternative.

Muralli,

You'll definitely need to swap either the drive or that SCSI HBA. As Jeff said, you'll need the PCI-E version of that SCSI HBA as you can't use PCI-x in a Mac Pro if you can't swap the drive.

Otherwise, so long as you don't add other devices to that SCSI chain, you'll be satisfied with the SCSI configuration.

For others looking into this, the addition of hot-swap capabilities is something to consider when choosing SAS over SCSI. SAS allows hot swapping devices without the need to reboot your Mac to have the change recognized. Also, each SAS channel gets full bandwidth of the SAS environment.

Tim

 

[mpallikonda]

Muralli,

You'll definitely need to swap either the drive or that SCSI HBA. As Jeff said, you'll need the PCI-E version of that SCSI HBA as you can't use PCI-x in a Mac Pro if you can't swap the drive.

Otherwise, so long as you don't add other devices to that SCSI chain, you'll be satisfied with the SCSI configuration.

For others looking into this, the addition of hot-swap capabilities is something to consider when choosing SAS over SCSI. SAS allows hot swapping devices without the need to reboot your Mac to have the change recognized. Also, each SAS channel gets full bandwidth of the SAS environment.

Tim

Thanks, Tim.
Going to change the HBA to get PCIe card.

Murali

 

[Tim Jones]

Thanks, Tim.
Going to change the HBA to get PCIe card.

Murali

Arrrgh oster_oops: ! I just realized that this was the Apple card. Not a good choice for tape. This is a limited function set HBA that Apple OEM'd from LSI Logic to support SCSI disk and CD writers. There's a reason that it's so "inexpensive."

If you haven't ordered the PCI-E version yet (if they even have it), I strongly urge you to get the ATTO Technologies UL5D. Not much more expensive, but it works 100% with tape drives.

BTW - this isn't a BRU thing, but a tape drive communication thing.

Tim

 

[Scott Mason]

Hi Scott, Both BRU PE/LE and BRU Server will see the contents of your LTO-3A media as a normal disk data source - much the same way that Finder sees them. Therefore, by loading the LTO-3A tape and making it available on your desktop, BRU will happily backup/archive the data on your LTO-3A tapes to another, standard tape drive or disk archive location. One thing that using BRU is the manner provides - you can read and restore the archived data onto any BRU platform (all of our archives are compatible across all platforms and are readable by all current and future versions of BRU software).

And, even though I've not tried them, many other file-by-file backup and archival tools should also allow you to process the 3A volumes in this manner - YMMV :innocent: .

Tim

Thanks Tim, that is good information. What is the best way to mount the drive on the desktop. Use the connect to? I have not been able to make this work, but it could be by network settings. I am able to connect through the gui though

If I can get the drive to mount will I be able to plug in file paths and ask the software to retrieve the files I ask for or do I need to go in manually. I see you say it searches like finder, so I imagine I could just search to the file and that would be great too

Mahalo for your insight
scott

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Thanks, Mike. Also note that BRU Server 1.3.0 is in the wings awaiting our BRU Producer's Edition release (this week??). We're shooting for a February release of Server 1.3.0. If you're just purchasing BRU Server 1.2.0, your upgrade will be free.

So BRU PE is really close?

Will you guys have a demo version available? I think I missed the beta sign-up, assuming there was one. But it sounds interesting and may be more useful to many of us here compared to BRU LE.

Hi Scott, Both BRU PE/LE and BRU Server will see the contents of your LTO-3A media as a normal disk data source - much the same way that Finder sees them. Therefore, by loading the LTO-3A tape and making it available on your desktop, BRU will happily backup/archive the data on your LTO-3A tapes to another, standard tape drive or disk archive location.

That's good to know, but I'm assuming the 3A tape must still be loaded into an LTO-3A drive, correct? When I answered above, about there not being a solution... I was taking it as a question of being able to read LTO-3A media in drive systems other than Quantum's own LTO-3A drive.

 

[Tim Jones]

So BRU PE is really close?

Will you guys have a demo version available?

Yes, very close :whistling: . The demo is 30 day, full function..

I think I missed the beta sign-up, assuming there was one. But it sounds interesting and may be more useful to many of us here compared to BRU LE.

Additionally, BRU Producer's Edition will include TOLIS Tape Tools for dealing with media from non-Mac shops such as Linux and USAnimation, or IRIX systems so that you can read those tar tapes onto your Mac.

That's good to know, but I'm assuming the 3A tape must still be loaded into an LTO-3A drive, correct? When I answered above, about there not being a solution... I was taking it as a question of being able to read LTO-3A media in drive systems other than Quantum's own LTO-3A drive.

Yes, sorry that wasn't clear - ONLY a 3A or SDLTA drive will read those tapes. They are written to allow the network system inside the drive to treat them as pseudo filesystems rather than archive or backup media. That's also why the only way you know what's on one is to load it.

Tim

 

[mpallikonda]

Arrrgh oster_oops: ! I just realized that this was the Apple card. Not a good choice for tape. This is a limited function set HBA that Apple OEM'd from LSI Logic to support SCSI disk and CD writers. There's a reason that it's so "inexpensive."

If you haven't ordered the PCI-E version yet (if they even have it), I strongly urge you to get the ATTO Technologies UL5D. Not much more expensive, but it works 100% with tape drives.

BTW - this isn't a BRU thing, but a tape drive communication thing.

Tim

Thanks, Tim.
Jeff suggested the same. I got the "ATTO Dual Channel Ultra320 SCSI PCIe Card".

 

[Tim Jones]

Perfect solution! You'll work right out of the box. Plus, ATTO actually supports Mac users

 

[mpallikonda]

Tim,
May be this is very simple, but, I'm not sure where I'm doing wrong.
I successfully connected HP 1840 through Atto and was able to access the drive through Bru LE.
I did a backup of a small file and when I try to restore this to a new location on my hard drive, I see the message below (no file is being written).
Would you know why the file is not getting written on to hard drive ?

Restoring relative to:
/Volumes/WDTB/TestLTO
bru: [I215] translating "/" to "./"
./Volumes
./Volumes/SamsungHD
./Volumes/SamsungHD/ExportedMovies
./Volumes/SamsungHD/ExportedMovies/TestMovie_LowRes.mov

**** bru: execution summary ****

Started: Mon Jan 26 23:10:57 2009
Completed: Mon Jan 26 23:11:55 2009
Archive id: 497e87e30402
Messages: 0 warnings, 0 errors
Archive I/O: 0 blocks (0KB) written
Archive I/O: 2224576 blocks (4449152KB) read
Files written: 0 files (0 regular, 0 other)
Files read: 4 files (1 regular, 3 other)
Files skipped: 0 files
Volumes used: 0
Write errors: 0 soft, 0 hard
Read errors: 0 soft, 0 hard
Checksum errors: 0

Restore Completed.

Thanks in advance
Murali

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Tim,

since I'm not happy with Retrospect (buggy, complicated, sometimes really annoying)
I'm into the market for a new backup software, BruLE seems to fit my needs for a start, BruPE would be interesting. Once available I will give it try.

What really bothers me is: Can Brue read tapes (LTO3 in my case) that where backuped with Retrospect. I know you cannot read the the backup-set but can you somehow retrieve the data?

Otherwise I must keep a copy of Retrospect for the next decades...

Hans

 

[Tim Jones]

Ah, the hidden restore

Ah, the hidden restore

Files read: 4 files (1 regular, 3 other)
Files skipped: 0 files
Volumes used: 0
Write errors: 0 soft, 0 hard
Read errors: 0 soft, 0 hard
Checksum errors: 0

Restore Completed.

The restore did complete - a restore reports "Files read" as you're reading the archive. As to the apparently "missing" restored dara, that's an issue with BRU's restoring EXACTLY what it backed up in LE. If you go into a Terminal and look at the restore path you specified, you'll find:

/Volumes/WDTB/TestLTO/Volumes/SamsungHD/ExportedMovies/TestMovie_LowRes.mov

Because the Volumes folder is a hidden folder, BRU restores it hidden.

In BRU PE, when you specify an alternate path and select a specific file, the file's original path will be truncated. That means that this restore ni BRU PE would have resulted in:

/Volumes/WDTB/TestLTO/TestMovie_LowRes.mov

- which is, I'm sure, more in line with what you expected.

Once BRU PE is launched, a new version of BRU LE will be heading out with this same change. For now, you'll need to use the magic Finder "Go to folder" option (Command-Shift-G) and move the file to the proper location.

There's more on this in the following knowledgebase article on our website:

http://knowledgebase.tolisgroup.com/?View=entry&EntryID=161

Tim

 

[Tim Jones]

What really bothers me is: Can Bru read tapes (LTO3 in my case) that where backuped with Retrospect. I know you cannot read the the backup-set but can you somehow retrieve the data?

Unfortunately, no. The legal issues involved with anything Retrospect prohibit that.

However, what one major studio doing is restoring their AIT-2 based Retrospect data to a specially assigned RAID farm and then backing that same data up with BRU Server and a set of LTO-3 drives. This accomplishes two things - it converts the media from AIT-2 to LTO-3 for archival purposes, and also lets them know how many of the Retrospect tapes are unrecoverable.

Additionally, once you go to BRU format, you'll always have backwards compatibility with newer versions of BRU and you can restore old tapes with the BRU demos should you decide to move to another solution; you can even restore onto a different platform. Also, we're providing the BRU source code in escrow with the NARAS P&E Wing so that NARAS members will even be protected should TOLIS Group and BRU development cease to continue.

Tim