Backing up with SSDs?

[David Wyatt]

Is there any reason this workflow for on-set backing up wouldn't work:

Sonnet Sata Express Card / 34 with two eSata ports each connected to a Sata SSD (64GB or, if you're loaded, 128GB).

I emailed Sonnet regarding this set-up and they couldn't see any reason why it wouldn't work, but I haven't actually tested out this set-up yet (it's a bit of a big investment if it doesn't work!) My main queries are:

1. Would it be possible to back up to the two SSDs simultaneously via the Sata Express Card (so you'd have 2 identical copies, one on each SSD - essentially mirrored like you'd have in a Raid 1 array)? I don't know if the two SSDs would appear on your desktop as two separate drives - if they did presumably you could just drag and drop your footage to the first drive then drag and drop the footage to the second drive.
2. People have reported the flaky connection problems of Express Cards and cables. Sonnet sell eSata cables with locking connectors, but is there any equivalent for Express cards?
3. Seems like a silly question but do eSata cables just plug straight into Sata SSDs or do you need some kind on interface?

Theoretically the advantage of this set-up is:
1. Reliability of flash-based storage as opposed to hard-drives.
2. Ability to run back-ups without mains power like most Raid 1 and Raid 5 set-ups would need. The whole set up should fit inside a briefcase-sized pelican case along with your MacBook Pro. The set-up should also eat up less battery power than using bus-powered Raid 1 hard drives like the Sonnet Fusion F2. In case you need more than one MacBook Pro battery I saw this handy multi-charger the other day:
http://www.newertech.com/products/charger_cond.php
3. Ability to possibly have two simultaneous back-ups for added safety (one could go off to the editors at the end of the day?)
4. Write speeds should be quicker than for backing up via firewire 800 to hard drives?

Although it's not the cheapest back-up option (with 64GB SSDs at around $1000 each and 128GB SSDs almost $4,000!!), it should come down in price. Also if you invested in a bunch of 1.8" SSDs these could also be used on the Red camera itself (whenever the eSata interface for SSDs comes out - it seems to have been removed from the Red Store, so I don't know if that option's been canned now??)

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Sounds great... Whatever you think you can afford, dude.

 

[David Wyatt]

Sounds great... Whatever you think you can afford, dude.

The main thing I'm interested in is whether backing up to flash memory has any difference in the eyes of insurance/bond people compared to backing up to hard drives, or do they lump them all in as the same thing? This is something, as a community, we should be addressing as owners of cameras that record to a format insurance/bond people don't really trust or recognize. As far as I know they're reluctantly happy with tape back-ups on set (which isn't necessarily practical, portable or quick), but they're not happy with solely hard-drive based back-ups (no matter what the Raid set-up?) I'd be interested to know how dual flash back-ups would compare in terms of MTBF compared to the probability of Raid 1 or Raid 5 failing (maybe it's not so different??) - any mathematicians out there? Obviously with the price of higher capacity SSDs being what they are I'm not talking about shooting wedding videos, I'm talking about reliable ways of backing up on-set on higher-end jobs where reliability definitely has its price (the other USP being the ability to reliably back up on location without mains power).

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I think at this point in time it's all very new... Backing up or recording to solid state media should most definitely be more stable than hard drives. But it may take some time and convincing to get insurance companies to see it in that light.

There are new FLASH technologies coming, one of the most promising is high capacity, write-once FLASH. These are specifically designed for permanent archival of your data and are not vulnerable to magnetic fields that can harm tapes and drives or sunlight, UV rays, x-rays that can harm optical media. They don't degrade over time (supposedly) as optical and magnetic media (and film) does.

I think FLASH for long-term backup or archival at this point doesn't make sense due to the cost. But for immediate or temporary backup of working data in the field or on-set, it would make for a great solution. I'm very anxious to see what RED offers us for the FLASH drive. I'm hopeful it will be a lot better than the 64GB for $4500 that is listed on their site. Eventually I think RED DRIVES will all go solid state, once prices come down. And at that point, backing up in the field isn't going to be as big of a concern. I would trust a ruggedized SSD more than I would trust a video tape or film reel.

I'm looking at doing a documentary later this year that will involve me going off into various mountainous regions, lots of camping, little power, probably myself and one other person for a couple weeks. At this point, a backpack and maybe another pelican case full of CF cards seems to be the most logical choice for media. With that, I don't see any need to do field backups. I shoot, label the card, stow it in the bag. RED FLASH drives will also be of high interest if the price and capacity work out.

 

[Dylan Reeve]

It would be a VERY expensive way to backup... And I think for the benefits you might get (reliability wise) the cost wouldn't be justified.

While hard drives do fail, we know that, the chances of two drives failing independently is very very low. And as, ideally, the drive are only short-term storage, before you archive to LTO or similar, the chances of a failure is even less.

Make two copies to two independent drives, then make two LTOs when your ready - I'd say there is a bigger risk of physical destruction at that point than data corruption on of your backup.

As for a backpack of CF cards - not too bad an option really, the price isn't too extreme, but I'd be worried (especially while traveling) about losing a card (or cards). They are pretty small...

 

[David Wyatt]

I heard of one big broadcaster over here considering recording to enough CF cards so that they wouldn't need to format them within the shooting day. They're still interested in backing-up on set but just not formatting the original cards until all the day's footage is back at the editors, backed-up further onto Raid 5 and LTO-3 tape (the equivalent of "rushes clearance"). I think we can all get nervous about the cost of various set-ups for our own shoots but if you're considering renting out to big operations then you really can't put a price on reliability and safety (or more accurately they are more than prepared to pay for such reliability and safety).

 

[Dylan Reeve]

There is some sense in that. I guess it will depend on the workflows and systems that people put in place.

Personally once I have a clip on two separate drives I feel confident that it is safe to recycle the cards, but that's certainly not the only way to approach it.

Once you get to that level of backup then you're really looking at contingencies for freak occurrences... Things like physical destruction (car accident on the way to post house, or a fire or something). In those cases a CF will probably have a better survival outlook than a drive, but we're talking freak events at that point.

I imagine as this type of workflow becomes more and more common that people will start to draft policies and procedures for the handling of data. But in the meantime it's going to remain pretty ad-hoc.

So far I don't think I've heard of any hardware failures loosing footage with RED. I have heard of a couple of cases where files were not copied properly, or accidentally deleted. I've have heard of failures with the Firestore FS100 in HVX-land, and know someone who had a P2 fail due to environmental conditions. But then I've heard much worse stories of broken tapes, drop outs, ruined negs...