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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Backing up data "on the road"...

Doing a bit more looking, it seems Quantum offers DLT4 units (160GB tapes) with SATA or USB2 interfaces. Those are available as internal units only, but no big deal to place them into an external enclosure for eSATA or USB2 connectivity. I see some third-party vendors are selling them that way. This looks better than the VXA2 I mentioned earlier as the drives configured externally would be about the same price, but the tapes are looking to be cheaper. Also, I can't seem to find the external VXA2 firewire drive that takes the 160/172GB native tapes. All I can seem to find for sale and on Exabyte's web site is their model that takes the 80GB native tapes... The only desktop 172GB model they still show is the 1x7 autoloader, which Provantage has for $1500, but it's SCSI only. Some of the bigger Exabyte LTO and Quantum LTO autoloader drives have ethernet interfaces though and you don't have to use SCSI. There's a thought... The Exabyte Magnum 224 holds 12 tapes at a time for 4.6TB of storage (uncompressed) and has ethernet. It's not all that portable as it's a 2U rackmount unit. But at less than $4500, I'm seriously thinking this might be worth looking into... I don't need to be portable with mine and I could put it in my rack along with a lot of my other junk and render nodes. I can fill 1 4.6TB set and then swap to a new set of empty tapes.
 
...My bad.

The ethernet ports I mentioned on those tape systems are just for remote management, the interfaces for data are still SCSI. The Exabyte Magnum systems also come with Fiber Channel interfaces as an option. That would be cool, but it's like a $1500 upgrade. Ouch.
 
AppliedVisual said:
it seems Quantum offers DLT4 units (160GB tapes) with SATA or USB2 interfaces. Those are available as internal units only
Click to expand...

Internal unit with USB2?
 
Rob Lohman said:
Internal unit with USB2?
Click to expand...

Yep. Actually, Quantum's USB2 internal drives are still their SATA units. However they ship with Quantum's proprietary SATA to USB2 adapter (which only seems to work with their specific products). For a list of DLT4 drive configs you can view them here --> Quantum DLT4
 
We use Quantum's LTO3 Superloader 3 for backups of everything here. I see on Quantum's site that they have a half-height LTO3 external tape drive, which with its 400GB uncompressed capacity could also be a good match. So far, we've had good luck with the LTO3 tape cartridges - they seem more robust than AIT - we had AIT-2 years ago with mixed success at the time.
 
Looking at these a bit more, I'm confused as to why anyone would buy the desktop versions. ...Unless they absolutely needed the portability. Cost-wise, there are 7-slot LTO3 autoloaders for just a couple hundred more. Price wise, I'm really starting to like Quantum's 16-slot LTO3 unit. I'm starting to think maybe something like that would work best for me or the Exabyte Magnum 224. The FC models can sit in the rack next to the XServe RAID and another system on the network can perform backup duties. I already have an XServe G5 running XSAN, adding a tape library to the mix should be no big deal... I can connect the tape library via SCSI to the Xserve -- just have to buy a SCSI controller for it. Or I can just to the FC tape library since I already have FC in place, I suppose it depends how much that SCSI controlelr is... Probably cheaper than the difference between the SCSI and FC tape libraries, I'm sure. Bet I can pick one up for cheap on ebay.

Anyway, I'll keep an eye on such things -- probably won't change my habits or buy anything new until I pay for my RED One. If holographic storage becomes a reality within the next year, then these tape libraries could become obsolete real quick.
 
AIT vs LTO vs DLTS4 vs HDD Bloodyhell!

AIT vs LTO vs DLTS4 vs HDD Bloodyhell!

OK,

Thanks for user input on AIT fickleness.

Let's summarize options for this thread to be applied with this year's technology for backing up data on the road using a hypothetical HD one-hour broadcast client. Figure 2 red cameras and let's say 15 hours each in 4k (stock footage may be used in a feature film) one now has 3000 GB on 10 (?) red drives.

Old school, I'd have 30-40 HDCAM tapes to hand carry - hell I've hand carried 20 rolls of 35mm before. Pissed off the South African airport security dudes when I set up my changing bag for the inspection.

Options

1) 10 (?) additional red drives ($$$$?)
2) "Tabletop" AIT, LTO, DLTS4 w/surge protector/scsi cords/tapes etc ($4k)
3) Red Digital storage solution not yet released? specs subject to change.
4) A few dozen portable firewire HDD ($$$)

IMHO, it would be prudent to back up the digital footage and send the clones FEDEX and hand carry the masters. Corrupted digital data in post is very painful.

So I guess it's wait until NAB to decide the economical choice for field back up of digital data, yes?

This link is spot on for LTO vs gen 4 DLT.

http://www.open-mag.com/features/Vol_122/DLT-S4/DLT-S4.htm


PS - The Quantum model DLT does come in a "tabletop" model @ 13 lbs and stores approx 8 hrs of WORM 4K RAW. A reasonable archival method, no? DLTS4 may also provide a smart way to deliver a finished film to the film-out lab?

PSS- Today's HD broadcast production budgets can not afford to retain a Digital Media Technician in remote locations. I think my soundman just got a new paragraph added to his job description.
 
For situations where you just have to be portable, I would consider buying/renting a bunch of RED DRIVES and then having a tape backup system as well.

If the tape unit must be mobile, then it's probably going to be a desktop LTO3-HH drive. Quantum has one for about $3300 street price (your $4K figure is about right by the time you address all the details). But then we get into all the issues of connecing UW160 SCSI to a notebook computer. Or you could go with a system similar to the Dell 20" XPS portable - I believe it has a PCI-E expansion slot that could hold a SCSI adapter. If the tape drive can be located a bit off location (hotel, van, boat, etc..) where the dump to tape could be done in the evenings, you could connect up the RED DRIVES used that day and have them back up overnight to one of the LTO3 autoloader units. Surprisingly, the autoloaders aren't much more than the single stand-alone unit. LTO3 drives should be able to back up a RED DRIVE in less than 2 hours. Depending on make/model, they advertise 240~290GB/hour. The autoloader units are not by any means truly portable though.. And if you promote your sound guy to backup-tech as an additional job function, that should be pretty simple. Someone hands him a RED DRIVE, he plugs it into the notebook, inserts a blank LTO3 tape and starts the copy. It should be done within 90 minutes or so, completely rewound. So in plenty of time to intercept the next RED DRIVE and do the same.

Portable/external HDDs might be an option too, but I would definitely double up on all your back-ups with those.
 
Hi Applied Visual.

Oh... I do love some of the toys you're adding to the list of suggestions! If only I had unlimited $ and a reservation for a RED One!!!

:-)
 
Looking further into the AIT-5 option

Looking further into the AIT-5 option

Will we be able to transfer footage at the end of the day directly from the Red Drive to an AIT-5 Drive? And I'm talking doing it as easy as plugging your AB battery packs into the charger for the night.

I know everybody talks about using their laptops to do transfers but am I the only one to feel that this is going the weakest point of the data backup workflow?

I mean my coming productions are going to be remote documentary shooting and I know for a fact that there won't be any budget to hire one person specifically to handle data backup.

So it's going to be up to the AC to handle the data storage along with the batteries and so on at the end of the day. So we need to find a safe, quick and easy solution for the AC to do this.

And to me a consumer laptop is not safe, easy and reliable!! Plus it's the first thing that is going to be stolen among all the equipment (believe me, between an AIT-5 and a Vaio; even if it's cheaper the thief goes for the Vaio :)

The Sony AIT-5 Drive is a good starting point cause it's already there, it's cheap (compared to other dedicated drives mentioned in this thread), and it's reliable.
BUT this solution only works if you can transfer directly from the RedDrive to the drive...

Just imagine an AC exhausted at the end of the day (and I've been there) his brain can only do one simple procedure with no more than 5 steps.
-plug batteries to charger
-plug RedDrive to AIT-5
-push button (only one!!!)
-eat (if hotel restaurant still open)
-sleep
OPTION: brush teeth

Any comments on that Red Team?

Thanks
 
Brainstorm said:
Oh... I do love some of the toys you're adding to the list of suggestions! If only I had unlimited $ and a reservation for a RED One!!!
Click to expand...

Haha... I know what you mean! I've got my reservation and I'm still trying to figure out everything else. It's great that the camera itself is so cheap compared to Genesis or D20, but that's only one piece of the puzzle. I think a lot of people are in for a shock when they start trying to figure out how to archive what they shoot with RED. Even if you throw away 70% of what you shoot, that still amounts 96GB of data you keep for every 2 hours of 4K 24p you shoot. Ouch.

I'm kinda surprised that more people haven't added their input on this subject. Mobile or not, I find it strange that not many people have an opinion on backup and archival of their data. The capacities are large and much of it will require long shelf-life too. Hard drives aren't going to cut it here and holographic storage isn't ready for prime time yet. :)
 
I think most everyone is in the know that this will be huge amounts of data even at some points more then we can handle. Personally though I will take a camera that gives me more image data then I can handle with options to down rez to less then a camera that gives me less right off the bat and has me begging for more and having to upgrade every 3 years.
 
Hi Arno....

You get it! 5 steps.... no more. Ah. that would be great wouldn't it?

By the way. Is the hotel restaurant still open or do we have to go to Burger King again cause the shoot,drive, unpacking and backing up keep us going late again?
 
Back on the subject of external, single-slot / desktop tape drives. mwave.com has some decent prices. Or at least a bit cheaper than what I've seen most other places. The Sony AIT-5 desktop unit is $2900 and the HP LTO-3 FH desktop unit is $3K.

These are bare drives - no cables or backup software, but this may fit the bill for someone. Anyway, I'm not affiliated with mwave, just doing my due dilligence. I've bought from them in the past and have been pleased. I also really like newegg.com - great place to buy shtuff. I haven't checked to see what tape systems they have, but I bet it's worth a look. Anyway, I'm still going to wait until my RED is ready to ship before I make the final decision. I'm afraid if I buy now, I might miss the boat for for something better. :)
 
Well often the room service is the last option for food (especially when shooting in the middle of Jordan), but by the time they knock on the door the AC has usually fallen into the 2nd stage of emergency repair sleeping.

I'm surprised Stuart hasn't commented yet on my last post. Indeed I imagine that setting a communication routine with the AIT-5 would need to be implemented in the RedDrive if we want to avoid the use of a laptop.

But with all the attention in this forum thown onto the spike thread I guess we'll have to wait a bit for Red team comments.

Hello Red Team... Houston, we've got a problem....
(Waving desperately in the dark)
 
Laptop

Laptop

Arno, I'd take a laptop.

A RED-DRIVE and data tape drive can't talk to each other - as they are both peripherals they need a computer to communicate to them... With regard to a laptop, if its gets stolen, that is unfortunate, but at least its guarenteed that you'll be able to purchase a replacement.
 
I'll throw my thoughts in at this point!

1. There are ruggedized laptops (designed for military field ops) that are shock-proof and splash proof plus they have a PCI(express?) type socket onboard for slotting a card in. If I go down the RED route for "far-in-the-field" type shoots I will be getting one of those. (around the $2000 mark)

2. For higher budget shoots I was considering shooting 4k to RED magazines whilst feeding HD-SDI out to HDCAM SR as a lower but acceptable rez back up format. This will have the added benefit of reassuring producers worried about tapeless work flow. Though the data BU tape formats are also a possibility (re costs)

3. I've ordered many hard drives mail order over the years and none of them have arrived damaged due to decent packaging. So I would consider sending data back up hard drives via FEDEX but only with decent packaging.

4. The other and most simple choice is, untill a workable solution comes along, keep your shooting ratio low and treat RED footage like you would a 35/S16mm and have enough RED magazines.

I think it's important to remember that for the best part of 100 years the world has been shooting on a format that could not be backed up. So try and learn how the hell they managed it with so much sucess.

JohnF
 
As an added note I've just read up on the Sony AIT-5 and noticed that it can fit
in a 3.5" drive slot. The ruggedized laptops I mentioned above have a just such a slot space for additional drives. (they are larger than normal laptops)

I think I smell a solution coming on!!!

JohnF
 
At the moment I'm away from my computer with the company links on it and right now I can't remember the name, sorry!

But it is a US firm that makes them. I think they can take upto 15G whilst operating! Plus they've been vehicle crash tested (upto 40mph and still work).

The laptops themselves are briefcase size.

JohnF
 
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