Aww... the $4750 was pushing it already...

[Trevor Harris]

I'm just a lowly college student hoping to get a lick of the professional camera salt block. I knew I was going to have to save my hard earned cash a long time to get the $4750 needed for just the fixed Scarlet, but now I feel like I'm just some idiot chasing a dollar bill on a fishing line... right into a big cactus.... What happened to 3k for $3k?

You guys just need to slow down before there's nothing left to distinguish the scarlet from the epic. (okay okay I exaggerate, but I'm still sad!)

 

[Jeremy Naus]

hey

it's of course not fun to hear that a camera that was first 3K for $3K got a bit more expensive and now will be close to 3K for $6K

For that amount of money you can buy yourself a Canon 5DMkII/7D with some very nice lenses. You'll even get a nice picture and all.

Myself I have a Canon XHA1, 5DMkII and 7D and I like them. But I'll still get myself a Scarlet when it will (finally) come out. Is $6K a lot of money? Of course it is. But I believe Scarlet will still offer me the best bang for my buck, when compared to what will be available in that same price-range on the market.
Everything I see that RED publishes of their progress makes me believe that it will blow my other camera's into oblivion.

As a student I would never have been able to by a "cheap" camera as the 7D, as all my money when to other hobbies But these days I'm making a bit of money using my camera's (about $2K a year, it's a hobby for me) and I'm pretty sure Scarlet will be a lot more future proof than my Canon camera's (I mean, my XHA1 won't playback what it records anymore (got an HV30 for that now) and it's not even 4 years old).

My advice (as many told me in the past) would be to film with what's available now (I'd suggest a 7D if you can) get some nice lenses (you can also start with the cheap 28mm f/2.8 and 50mm f/1.8 like I did). When Scarlet finally comes out, you'll have more experience (as I'm still learning each day), and you can sell your 7D (if you want/need to) and use the extra money to get a Scarlet.

And just to be clear. I myself would've loved to get a Scarlet for $3K (heck for that price I'd have bought 2), but reality is sadly different. We were told to expect it all to change and RED proved that to be true.

 

[J Davis]

I'm one of the ones actively wanting a non-HDRx™™™ scarlet for $4750 and yes I too was struggling to justify even spending that amount.
Especially as everything I shoot is either for the web or for film festivals. For me it's overkill.
But what choice do you have? Af100? Pay the same money for 8bit long gop capture?
There's is no in-between priced camera above DSLR's and less than the fixed scarlet.

 

[Tom Wardrop]

Firstly, to clarify, every bit more you end up paying for the Scarlet, the better it will be. The scarlet as we now know it, although it costs double of what it did originally, is pretty much twice as good as it was. Just about every spec has been improved, from HDRx™™™ to a higher bitrate. I know that some people may have been perfectly satisfied with the original Scarlet, but unfortunately, specs change.

It's a double-edged sword really. Most companies don't announce cameras or specs until a couple months before release, well after the specs have been finalised. On top of that, most companies only make incremental improvements, and likely have road-maps covering the next 4 years worth of cameras. The fact that RED has been so open about their upcoming cameras so long before they're released is both a pro and a con. It's only a "con" though because people really don't know how likely it is for RED to change spec's and prices. They're learning as they go; it's the only possible way they can achieve what they've set out to do.

So I'm not saying "suck it up", but merely that this is the reality, and that there's plenty of justification for why things have turned out like they have. For some, the increase in price has been a major disappointment, where as for others (I dare say the majority), it's only sweetened the deal.

Personally, I don't even plan to make any money off of a RED camera. I'm planning to buy one simply as a personal/hobby/general purpose camera. I'm young and am only on a moderate wage, but my expenses are generally low and hence I have enough for a Scarlet even after the price increase. Sure, it makes it harder to justify, but at the same time, it's money better spent. Buying a RED camera with HDRx™™™ will be like buying a film camera, as opposed to a video camera. It's going to take long time for the mainstream prosumer cameras of today to get anywhere near RED. RED is higher resolution, shot in RAW, has a much better range of contrast, is completely modular, and is fully professional (plus more).

Seriously, a RED Scarlet should never have even been on your wishlist to start with. This thing should priced at over $20k or $30k at least. The fact that you've even been able to consider buying one is remarkable.

EDIT: lol, the forum code responsible for adding "tm" after "HDRx" really needs to be fixed. Why doesn't it check for the existence of a trademark symbol before inserting another one?

 

[Jody Neckles]

I'm just a lowly college student hoping to get a lick of the professional camera salt block. I knew I was going to have to save my hard earned cash a long time to get the $4750 needed for just the fixed Scarlet, but now I feel like I'm just some idiot chasing a dollar bill on a fishing line... right into a big cactus.... What happened to 3k for $3k?

You guys just need to slow down before there's nothing left to distinguish the scarlet from the epic. (okay okay I exaggerate, but I'm still sad!)

Trevor I understand your sad like a lot of people... I think a lot of options from other manufactures will be offering similar options to the original spec of Scarlet over the next year or so. So I imagine RED will use HDRx to further differentiate itself from the competition. Unfortunately this does push the price up.

Regarding the features of the Scarlet vs Epic, you are assuming they have a similar spec. There is a lot of features the Epic will have that has not even been discussed by RED on this forum. Do you really think RED would release a camera for less than $6000 and then another with a few extras for $35,000?

 

[Elsie N]

I'm just a lowly college student hoping to get a lick of the professional camera salt block. I knew I was going to have to save my hard earned cash a long time to get the $4750 needed for just the fixed Scarlet, but now I feel like I'm just some idiot chasing a dollar bill on a fishing line... right into a big cactus.... What happened to 3k for $3k?

You guys just need to slow down before there's nothing left to distinguish the scarlet from the epic. (okay okay I exaggerate, but I'm still sad!)

Check your budget... see where your discretionary spending is going. Then, don't spend there anymore. As a last resort... sell your books. You're in college so apparently you have some smarts. Use them.

 

[Emiel Labree]

Can you perhaps split the cost with someone else in your area? Might be an option.

 

[David Rasberry]

Believe me, HDRx™™ is worth eating beans and rice for a year! Get a second job, mow lawns, do whatever it takes. If you are serious about your art as a cinematographer this is a no brainer.

http://red.cachefly.net/walk.m4v

I realize I should be posting this elsewhere (in the Scarlet area, say), but for a little perspective vis-à-vis the new pricing on the Scarlet, look at comparative pricing below for cameras with -

1) essentially smaller sensors
2) no RAW capture
3) certainly no HDRx™™™™

Canon XH-G1s $6,099.99
Canon XL-H1s (PAL) $8,999.00
JVC GY-HD250U1/3” CCD (16x Fujinon lens)$5,995.00
Sony PMW-EX1R 1/2” sensor$6,299.00
Sony DSR-400L 2/3-Inch(2.5-Inch Color LCD Screen and 17x IF Lens) ]$11,992.00

and...
no 3k
no redcode
no 150fps
and so on...

 

[Jim Retar]

Those cameras exist though! Not sure why people insist on comparing the specs/prices of a camera that exsists to one that is only on paper. Without knowing the specifics of each camera, i'm sure they all having EVF, LCD and pro I/Os.

True, there is nothing on the horizon that competes with Scarlet, on paper.. and HDRx™ is a revelation... but these guys (sub $10k market) will move very fast when a threat actually surfaces. No one knows what is in the pipeline.

 

[David Rasberry]

Those cameras exist though! Not sure why people insist on comparing the specs/prices of a camera that exsists to one that is only on paper. Without knowing the specifics of each camera, i'm sure they all having EVF, LCD and pro I/Os.

True, there is nothing on the horizon that competes with Scarlet, on paper.. and HDRx™™™™™ is a revelation... but these guys (sub $10k market) will move very fast when a threat actually surfaces. No one knows what is in the pipeline.

Haven't seen the big guys doing anything out of the normal model update flow yet, and this is three years after Red essentially gutted the mid level pro camera market.
Even the AF100 is a repackaging job, nothing really new there. It will be virtually the same price as Scarlet once you add the 14-150 kit lens to it.
Personally I think people are way overreacting to the price change and upgrade.

Yes the video cameras have more built in user features at their base price. The trade off will be radically better image quality for fewer features or $10k+ price fully loaded, about on par with other entry level 2/3" cameras. It is still by any measure a cheap camera for what it will deliver and the fact that Red can't build it for $3k is an unfortunate reality. Real practical pro quality motion cameras cost significant bucks. It has always been that way, but there are better cheap alternatives than ever before for those that can't make the budget first time around. I always thought Scarlet would wind up being in the EX1/3 price range to begin with. Didn't seem realistic to me to think otherwise.

 

[Leo Sardello]

:Yawn:

 

[Jim Retar]

Haven't seen the big guys doing anything out of the normal model update flow yet, and this is three years after Red essentially gutted the mid level pro camera market.

The R1 doesn't really touch their (sub $10k) core market, ENG and documentary work.

Fixed Scarlet would, and when it is released... i'd expect some kind of reaction... although kitting out a fixed Scarlet for ENG will be upwards of $15k, so they may rely on the "good enough" approach and just offer the cheap alternative.

In the mid market, Sony and ARRI could rely on reputation, but that stranglehold is shifting.

As for the AF-100... from what I can gauge, most people didn't want double costs for double specs... they are happy with 1080/60p, a decent codec, HD-SDI out and, most importantly, a large sensor (plus all the usual standard video features)... $5k is quite an achievement... but it is not the one for me. GH2 will tide me over.

 

[AaronPicot]

Trevor, don't take this the wrong way, as I don't know you personally, just my 2c here.

College student? Want to get your hands on a pro camera? Earn it. I don't think anyone comes out of college a pro. Get your hands on the best camera you can afford and shoot a small project with it. Next time, get your hands on a better camera, and better and better and so on. Put away some $$, and give yourself the experience you deserve before you wield the big boy sword. Then when it's time to use the pro camera, you yourself will be a pro and it will just make sense to use the right tools.

Also, anything under $10,000 for the Scarlet is a steal. I seem to recall looking into buying a HVX200 about 4 years ago and hoping I could save up the $6k needed to get just the camera.

 

[David Rasberry]

The R1 doesn't really touch their (sub $10k) core market, ENG and documentary work.

Fixed Scarlet would, and when it is released... i'd expect some kind of reaction... although kitting out a fixed Scarlet for ENG will be upwards of $15k, so they may rely on the "good enough" approach and just offer the cheap alternative.

In the mid market, Sony and ARRI could rely on reputation, but that stranglehold is shifting.

As for the AF-100... from what I can gauge, most people didn't want double costs for double specs... they are happy with 1080/60p, a decent codec, HD-SDI out and, most importantly, a large sensor (plus all the usual standard video features)... $5k is quite an achievement... but it is not the one for me. GH2 will tide me over.

It is a great time we live in that we have all of these marvelous choices to pick from. None are without some compromise, and the cheaper you go the more compromises there are. If all people want is 1080p video from a large sensor cheap then there are several options already out there that serve very well and produce way better images than anything available in the under $5k price range just two years ago.
It is obvious at the current state of technology that RED can't build the cameras they want to build that cheap. But I don't fault them for not compromising their own standards and given his history with Oakley, would expect nothing less from Mr. Jannard.

 

[rod bradley]

Trevor, to state the obvious, the camera does not make the man, the DP, or the filmmaker. In fact, there are real advantages to learning on "lesser" technology and working within those limitations. Then when you've earned the opportunity to work with more refined technology, you'll be all the better for it. And appreciate it more.

A mere five years ago people made marvelous films with this technology which is still making marvelous films -- and can be had for very little money. Even a hacked GH1 can make a marvelous film.

And you need a very minimal camera to practice the skills of composition, developing a sensitivity to light, understanding the dynamics of mise-en-scene and blocking.

Don't take me wrong, but as a writer I've known a lot of writers that are endlessly sharpening pencils and waiting for the paper to write the great novel. I hope you don't make the temporary unavailability of a particular camera as an excuse for anything.

 

[Nick D]

I'm just a lowly college student hoping to get a lick of the professional camera salt block. I knew I was going to have to save my hard earned cash a long time to get the $4750 needed for just the fixed Scarlet, but now I feel like I'm just some idiot chasing a dollar bill on a fishing line... right into a big cactus.... What happened to 3k for $3k?

You guys just need to slow down before there's nothing left to distinguish the scarlet from the epic. (okay okay I exaggerate, but I'm still sad!)

Trevor, don't be discouraged! Buy what you can afford now, and rent or buy Red when it's in your budget...

Exact same thing happened in the Music industry, where the youth mass market was OK with free/illegally downloaded MP3 at lower than CD fidelity, and a shrinking percentage of Audiophiles wanted higher resolution and had the purchasing power to back the formats... so, the retail market is essentially stuck in the mud for years now at stereo MP3 and 96K surround in 5.1 arrangement, even though much higher mastering formats and higher channel counts have existed for a decade!

The Video/Film industry bottoming process currently shows 720p is sufficient for Apple in 2011 and it currently works fine for online media delivery on medium to small size screens for most consumers...

What comes next is a re-alignment of pricepoints around 1080p 3D for online delivery, followed by the groundwork of the NHK-BBC Super Hi-Vision in the 2020's with ultra high resolution 8K or less depending on your screen choice... and this will be fine for the majority of consumers at home and in theaters...

Nothing RED offers can say or do will change that inevitiability, the big industry wheels are in motion already and they are currently at "in-between" resolutions in their proposed sub-IMAX resolution product launches... of course, RED has to try and sell something different, so they try to apply incrementally smaller improvements and proclaim them the next coming according to Jim Jannard "I have to say that when I held EPIC, fired it up and saw the images... I died and went to heaven." (currently on his EPIC webpage)

1080p 3D will be sufficient for many for years to come, with 3D/ interactive "Open Resolution" via broadband delivery as the final delivery format... at least until they start broadcasting straight into our eyeballs or skulls...

Michaelangelo was a great artist IN SPITE OF the tools available in his day... we still admire his paintings and sculpture today, and not a computer or smaller pixel in sight today will change that.

It's time to stop discriminating and focus back on the performances and put down the test charts...

 

[Jim Retar]

Another thing... as a film student, i'm not sure you should be tying yourself to a fixed lens system, just to get better quality footage.

Learning about when to use a certain prime, very fast lens, very wide lens etc will be important. The quite narrow DOF (f8 eqv. i think?) may also hinder your learning.

My recommendation is to get a GH2, a c-mount lens and a few cheap 16mm lens... then use the zoom feature and get filming (the zoom is 1:1 and will not have any aliasing/moire issues). Of course, you can also use the 4/3" sensor for shallow DOF shots.

You can then get a Scarlet Cinema package further down the line and you will already have some great lens.

 

[David Rasberry]

With 16mm lenses, GH2 will have little or no DOF advantage over Scarlet anyway if you can't cover the full sensor and have to crop the image. You can always go for the Scarlet Cinema instead of the fixed. With the 14-150 kit lens GH2 will have no DOF advantage over fixed Scarlet either.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

You guys just need to slow down before there's nothing left to distinguish the scarlet from the epic. (okay okay I exaggerate, but I'm still sad!)

dude, you should be dancing in the streets for what RED is offering, at the price point they are offering it. You are so young and will have so much time with this technology.

You know what isn't fair? Being middle-aged at the point that Jim invented it! Of course, I'm pretty sure he is older than I am - he should push all of this off on Jarred, take his EPIC, and go shoot whatever the hell he wants with it.

You want unfair? Growing old, now that's unfair.

Being twenty-something and looking for a thousand bucks? Really? What a lame thing to moan about. Go mow some lawns or something. Get your lazy, candy ass off the web and do a little work, and you'll have your SCARLET very quickly.

Sheesh. A thousand bucks is chump change. I could mow lawns and shovel snow and make that money in less than a year, in these parts. This isn't elitist. This is fact. You have your health and your youth. That is worth more than you can imagine. It's true, youth is COMPLETELY UTTERLY EFFIN' WASTED on the young.

Job well done, RED, and we live in amazing times.

 

[Tim Hole]

There are plenty of other threads dealing with the same thing. I don't think we need another.