Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Avid MC5 and RED's Workflow

Peter Matthes

Peter Matthes

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 21, 2009
Messages
1,071
Reaction score
0
Points
36
Age
56
Location
New York City
Website
www.penandincfilms.com
I have a very important client who exclusively edits using Avid MC.

On our next studio shoot, I want to convince them to upgrade to MC5 and shoot the project using the RED camera.

Keeping in mind that this client does not like surprises of any kind, can I confidently tell them that this native R3D workflow from RED to Avid MC5 is bulletproof and free from compatibility surprises or slow downs?

Please let me know any and all experiences that you have had with this fairly new post workflow.
 
People have had out of memory errors.

To get Avid-level bulletproofness, you still want to transcode to DNxHD.

It's still great for many things, but I say you should still transcode. This process is just made easier though.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Peter Matthes said:
...

Keeping in mind that this client does not like surprises of any kind, can I confidently tell them that this native R3D workflow from RED to Avid MC5 is bulletproof and free from compatibility surprises or slow downs?
...
Click to expand...

If your client really truly needs "bulletproof and free from compatibility surprises or slow downs," then I don't think there is a workflow from any NLE out there that will meet their needs. Probably the most stable workflows are with Panasonic P2 and Sony XDCAM (EX), which you don't need MC5 for.
 
How is this customer finishing?

Michael
 
MichaelP said:
How is this customer finishing?

Michael
Click to expand...

My thought was to primarily provide them an Apple Pro Res copy that they can edit using Avid MC5.

However, they will certainly want the flexibility of the Red R3D files in case there is a need for major color correction.

Has anyone ever used a RED into a Keypro deck for instant Pro Res files?

Peter
 
Peter Matthes said:
My thought was to primarily provide them an Apple Pro Res copy that they can edit using Avid MC5.
Click to expand...

It'd work but DNxHD is best! Plus, Avid makes the codec freely available - so what's your excuse not giving an Avid client DNxHD exactly?

Peter Matthes said:
However, they will certainly want the flexibility of the Red R3D files in case there is a need for major color correction.
Click to expand...

Give them the R3Ds too of course - they can use them Media Composer with some limitations or if they want bulletproof traditional Avid high-end super-client-friendly finishing, they can bring their cut into an Avid DS for the online and do the R3D thing with minimal hassle?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Bruce Allen said:
so what's your excuse not giving an Avid client DNxHD exactly?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
Click to expand...

The long transcoding time makes them very hesitant. :001_unsure:

That is why my thought was to give them an immediate Pro Res copy to edit with. Then, if they feel they need to, they can conform the R3D files (using the EDL) if there is desired color correction.

Make sense?
 
Peter Matthes said:
... can I confidently tell them that this native R3D workflow from RED to Avid MC5 is bulletproof and free from compatibility surprises or slow downs?

Please let me know any and all experiences that you have had with this fairly new post workflow.
Click to expand...

Okay, I'm going to bite my tongue after this post. The answer to your above ? is, "No, you can't tell them that."

The MC5 workflow isn't fairly new, it's literally two months old. The same w/ Avid reading ProRes.

If you can describe exactly what the project entails in terms of size, grading, reformatting, deliverables, etc. then maybe some people here can give you a better read on what you're doing will take and what could reasonably be expected. For example, if you have to crop the image, in MC5 you are performing that crop on the HD image, not the 4K, so you don't get the resolution benefit that 4K offers. So if that's a selling point to use Red, it won't be true unless your client also has access to a DS. Which means a conform to DS, which does not usually happen w/o some issues, e.g. some effects may not carry over, your client's grades in MC won't look the same in DS. It's doable and good but is it an available option for your client? (Or would they need this level of power?)

Anyway, IMHO, to recommend a new camera, a major new release of Media Composer and a new workflow all at the same time to a client who is OCD and doesn't tolerate problems, seems like a dangerous recipe to me.

Okay, I've said my .02 and will live on in peace w/ no more intrusions.
 
- It is a studio green screen shoot.
- It involves shooting 20-40 talent (talking heads), but a significant amount of footage.
- The footage is then handed off to the agency editors (cutting in Avid), who will decide the basic rough cut. Sometimes their cut is final, sometimes not.
- Then it is normally handed off to an editorial house who normally would conform the master. In the past, it was shot with an F23 to HD tape, and simultaneously down-converted to XDCam footage (using an EX-30 deck). The agency would cut the QTs immediately, and the full service editorial house would then digitize and conform the HD tape to match their cut. At this point, any basic color correction or sweetening would occur ... if needed.

My hope was that Apple Pro Res would offer them a much higher quality working print, and the R3D would offer them a much less "baked in" master.

One reason to switch is to bring them into this century.
 
Peter Moretti said:
The MC5 workflow isn't fairly new, it's literally two months old. The same w/ Avid reading ProRes.
Click to expand...

With all due respect, two months is fairly new. :smiley:

I am aware that Avid MC5 came out in early June.
 
Transcoding to DNxHD is actually a bit faster than ProRes... when everything else is equal.

Michael
 
Michael,

I believe Peter is talking about using a Ki Pro recorder to create ProRes dailies realtime during shooting.
 
Peter Matthes said:
can I confidently tell them that this native R3D workflow from RED to Avid MC5 is bulletproof and free from compatibility surprises or slow downs?
Click to expand...

Just my 2 cents, but no you can't tell them this. We've been cutting a feature with the Avid MC5 ProRes workflow here, literally since the day that MC5 was released. Does it work, yes, is it bulletproof, no. The situation we were in basically forced us into this route and it's been working out fine, but I would strongly suggest the DNxHD route. AMA workflow with ProRes files is not even close to perfect yet. Granted, I have not had a chance to test out the latest update that Avid released 2 days ago, but there are audio playback issues with ProRes files that we've come across and you are limited to the effects that you can use with ProRes files as well. It is a brand-new workflow and it will get better, but if you want bullet-proof now, you need to go the traditional Avid route.

I would also strongly recommend the investment into a RedRocket. It is well worth the money and once you have it, you won't know how you were working without it before.
 
Peter Moretti said:
Michael,

I believe Peter is talking about using a Ki Pro recorder to create ProRes dailies realtime during shooting.
Click to expand...

Yes ... I was.

However, due to the 720p output of the Red, the timecode will not be suitable for offline editing. :emote_hanged:

Back to the transcoding drawing board.
 
Peter Matthes said:
Yes ... I was.

However, due to the 720p output of the Red, the timecode will not be suitable for offline editing. :emote_hanged:

Back to the transcoding drawing board.
Click to expand...

What's so upsetting about just buying another computer or a REDROCKET instead of a KiPro? With two computers going you'd be able to do a high quality transcode to DNxHD very quickly.

The agency could even start making selects etc without all of the footage in - because they're on Avid, one guy can be going through what's in the system while another editor imports stuff and another impatient guy checks out the R3Ds. All in the same project. It is true multi-user wonderfulness.

Again, you don't need full-res debayer for an offline. We work on movie trailers for low budget indie films like Inception and Salt and a lot of the material we work off of is blurry, standard-definition, with watermarks on it.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Peter,

You potentially have a lot of post operators involoved in this, so it's also a ? of if they are comfortable w/ an Avid Red workflow--and which one?

Also realize that additional sweetening done in DS might not use any of the matte keys done in MC. Which would mean recreating them. I mention this b/c you're talking about a green screen shoot.
 
Avid doesn't read AMA RED files so easily.
at least for now it's not error free, even with top hardware.
in fact people said to me that AMA cause errors also with 5D footage..
 
personal preference for green screen is to do offline / low res edit using proxies - nail the edit in avid then make DPX files of the final edl.

would not key in avid (and i love avid..) AE or another comp prog is the go - much better result. keying frames from RED to DPX rocks (so long as you light it right...!!) and have never had a problem with it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top