Avid MC needs *native* redcode raw support...

[laguun]

Without native redcode, it will be slower to operate and offer a much more complicated workflow than i.e. adobe premiere pro CS3 by design.

 

[Michael Lindsay]

Hi

I've been bashing Avid today but:

I believe MC is the best video editorial tool in the world. You 'can' finish on it (and its slightly bigger brother symphony) with skill and measured expectations but it is not the out right leader in this area.

What we need is Metafuze to grow to take R3D files for editorial. Metafuze could create DNxHD 36 (or whatever) MXF files and the relevant ALE. This would allow a near ZERO import time and all MC strenghts intact. ALSO you can run metafuze on another machine and keep working on your avids as the material is created.

Breaking MC media managment to allow native r3d suport would not be the way forward.

What Avid needs ASAP MichaelP already knows and I am for one praying he can deliver the first stage by monday.

regards

Michael

PS if Avid symphony could work with 10bit RGB files I'd sign a contract that I would never ever use FCP. Even proper 10bit 4:2:2 suport would be great!!

 

[Jason Diamond]

Believe me when i say AVID has some great ideas and some great things coming. they want to make this work as much if not more than anyone here. Michael P is the RED leader at AVID and he is making it happen.

i cant say more but just trust me when i say hold on...:weight_lift:

 

[MichaelP]

MetaFuze will be the first product to support R3D for a variety of reasons, but mainly it will allow the offloading of R3D to any DNxHD format that is native MXF wrapped. This means drag and drop into the Avid MediaFile folder and you are ready to edit.

I believe that a transcode will continue to be a desired workflow due to expectations in performance by editors, multicamera, amount of dailies, etc. MetaFuze will be that step. MetaFuze already supports LUTs and does burn-ins, aspect ratio management etc.

We have some interim steps planned, but we all working towards better solutions.

Michael

 

[Wayne D]

patience people.....

i'm sure that all at AVID are working towards sorting this and it will not get done while they have to answer a bunch of emails about every ten seconds.

i'm sure they will let us know when it is ready to use....now get back to work MichaelP.....:bleh:

 

[laguun]

MetaFuze will be the first product to support R3D for a variety of reasons, but mainly it will allow the offloading of R3D to any DNxHD format that is native MXF wrapped. This means drag and drop into the Avid MediaFile folder and you are ready to edit.

I believe that a transcode will continue to be a desired workflow due to expectations in performance by editors, multicamera, amount of dailies, etc. MetaFuze will be that step. MetaFuze already supports LUTs and does burn-ins, aspect ratio management etc.

We have some interim steps planned, but we all working towards better solutions.

Michael

While there are many scenarios where a transcode makes perfectly sense (online 4K realtime, massive VFX etc), for editing native redcode with switchable quality is certainly the best way.

 

[MichaelP]

it all depends on how optimized the decode is for most operations with whatever quality is being used (debayered). Also unknown is whether the SDK allows for a render back to R3D or does that need to be done to another format (as it is in FCP today). If all that was as efficient as other optimized codecs, then I agree - editing of R3D (or copies of R3D after a backup) is the way to go.


Michael

 

[Christoffer Glans]

The best would be to edit a reference to the original r3d files and then output a render of that sequence. That way you don't need the power to show the entire thing in 4K, you can view it in 1080p but you still play of the 4K file.

Even better would be if you could export the sequence and place it in an external colorgrading software and from that export a 4K render.

There's no need to edit r3d files in it's full resolution, it would be way to heavy if you don't pay as much as for the red to get a computer with the processing power to be able to do it.

The more you transcode the longer the workflow takes. My dream is to be able to shoot, transfer, edit, colorgrade and THEN render/transcode into a "finished" movie. That would be worth more then gold!

 

[MichaelP]

A reference is pointing to the original R3D file, it is just being wrapped and viewed differently. That's how the QT reference works. Move the R3D files off the drive, the references will be empty. From a workflow point of view they are the same.

The debayering at different resolutions will allow for more performance, but again the balance is between picture quality and type of editing you are doing - single video track would probably work fine - as you start to build layers and transition, the optimization of the codec will be key to what is expected as an editing experience by the editor. Add to that multicamera, etc.

There certainly is value as well in the finishing mastering to work from the native RAW files, do all the work, then render out to the deliverable format needed - be it DPX for a film out, HD for broadcast, or RedRay when the encoder becomes available.

Michael

 

[Bruce Allen]

MichaelP, you can have the best of both worlds.

Since Avid has such great media-management tools, maybe you could get build on that, eg:

1. editor makes selects natively editing .r3d files (can be low-quality, no transitions, etc)

2. editor selects sequence with selects - chooses menu option "generate DNxHD media from R3D in sequence". This pops up a dialog box - you can just hit Enter and go, or you can tweak settings like handles, 1-light color settings, DNxHD quality, sharpening, conversion quality/speed, etc.

3. this calls RedLine in the background to create DNxHD media.

4. when RedLine is done, Avid creates (using existing media management functions eg decompose):
- a new bin with every clip used in your sequence transcoded to DNxHD
- a new sequence referencing the DNxHD versions of the clips
- the DNxHD clips have metadata connecting them to the original R3D clips, so you can select a clip and choose "re-generate DNxHD media from R3D". Then you can tweak color, handles, sharpening, scaling, do online, etc.

5. Now you're good when client arrives expecting DNxHD-class realtime performance.

6. if shots need serious re-grading, use the "re-generate media from R3D" function.

7. for online, you can:
- just go out to tape if it looks good enough

OR

- turn on a "do max-quality debayer and render color correction and filters using 16-bit-per-channel transcode" setting. Then when you render your sequence (or tweak final CC), Avid:
1. gets frame from R3D with max-quality debayer, at 16-bit-per-channel quality (I know 12bpc is sufficient but let's think ahead for Epic here)
2. applies CC and effects at 16-bit resolution
3. then makes beautiful 10bit DNxHD file (should look great).
4. go out to 1080p tape

OR

Export cut to RedCine and bring media back in to Avid

OR

- For a higher level of speed, power and control, go to Avid DS. It will refer to original R3D files (optionally bringing across the basic color curves from your Media Composer edit). Presumably Avid DS will be moving in the direction of responsive grading of RAW files, full realtime 4K, etc...

OR

Use 3rd-party finishing tool (Assimilate, Iridas, Quantel, discreet, etc).

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[M Most]

The more you transcode the longer the workflow takes. My dream is to be able to shoot, transfer, edit, colorgrade and THEN render/transcode into a "finished" movie. That would be worth more then gold!

Although it's admittedly not an offline editing tool, you've basically described what Assimilate Scratch does today. And I think that costs considerably less than gold (depends on how much gold, I suppose....).

 

[Christoffer Glans]

No, I mean to edit a reference to the original r3d file within Avid Media composer. I'm not editing with Scratch, I'm only colorgrading, right?
I want to be able to unload the CF card and edit straight away. I've transcoded some stuff through redcine and it takes a while to do that.
In my view an unnecessary "while". With the ability to edit a reference from the r3d file at the resolution of your choice and then colorgrade before making the first transcode of any kind will make the workflow superfast without the need of an entire postproduction house.

Any transcode except the last finalize of the entire project should be considered a halt in the workflow. The fewer transcodes needed the better and if we are able to edit a reference directly from the original files, colorgrade and then, only then, transcode into a finalized movie, it will be the way anyone would want. It requires less disc space, less power and it gives much more control and much less timeconsumption.

 

[M Most]

No, I mean to edit a reference to the original r3d file within Avid Media composer. I'm not editing with Scratch, I'm only colorgrading, right?

Scratch does conforming, color grading, file conversions, playout to video formats, and a number of other things. It is not primarily a color correction system, it is all of these things. And, yes, you could edit with it if you wanted to (but it's not really designed for that, and there are better tools for it).

I want to be able to unload the CF card and edit straight away. I've transcoded some stuff through redcine and it takes a while to do that.
In my view an unnecessary "while". With the ability to edit a reference from the r3d file at the resolution of your choice and then colorgrade before making the first transcode of any kind will make the workflow superfast without the need of an entire postproduction house.

You can do that now with Final Cut, but most people don't for the same reason most people likely won't with other software either - because the combination of storage requirements, storage speed, and processor intensive operations make these very "heavy" files for fluid, creative editing. The fact is that decompressing and "quick debayering" selected wavelet extractions in real time requires a lot of processing, processing that is not needed with smaller, "lighter" files that do not require live debayering. So unless computers get a hell of a lot faster and storage gets a hell of a lot smaller in the next couple of months, this is likely to remain the case for the near future, regardless of what a development kit allows.

And what's wrong with enlisting the services of a postproduction house, particularly for things like color correction - something that can considerably enhance the final product when it's done by someone who has talent and expertise in that particular area? Not to mention creating actual deliverable elements - something you probably can't do on your personal computer? I'm just asking....

 

[Jason Diamond]

- turn on a "do max-quality debayer and render color correction and filters using 16-bit-per-channel transcode" setting. Then when you render your sequence (or tweak final CC), Avid:
1. gets frame from R3D with max-quality debayer, at 16-bit-per-channel quality (I know 12bpc is sufficient but let's think ahead for Epic here)
2. applies CC and effects at 16-bit resolution
3. then makes beautiful 10bit DNxHD file (should look great).
4. go out to 1080p tape

I'm working on this possibility with an Unnamed Software company:
the ability to edit with transcoded proxies (or better option once SDK reveals possibilities)
link to R3D's and CC/scale/debayer/etc... all from the NLE auto pointing to the R3d using metadata from the timeline.
Render and replace.

It's all extremely possible and promising its just about waiting for the SDK to see what its actually going to allow access to overall within the R3D.

stay tuned is all i can say!

BTW this will not be an AVID only solution, FCP/AE/Premiere as well.

:construction: