AVID keeps shutting down when I link to RED mxf ama...

[James_Mills]

Hey, all. I took my new Scarlet out for its first run today and dove into Avid right afterwards to try to figure this all out. After doing some research I figured out that the best way for me to edit on Avid is to transcode my footage into an MXF file off of Red Cine. At least that's what I think is the best way, although I read somewhere that now you can link directly to AMA without having to transcode through Red Cine via a RED plugin. I also read that this plugin isn't compatible with Avid V 5.0 though, can anyone confirm this? And is it worth getting a new version of Avid for or is transcoding it through Red Cine fine as it is?

So the story continues: I went through the proper steps to export the footage as an mxf file (23.98 1080 10bit, and made the 4k selection at "Half-premium" like a tutorial told me to), but when I try to link this file to ama off my project my entire Avid just closes down after a few moments. I've tried to create another Avid MediaFiles system and put the file there so it would automatically be read as a database file but that didn't work either... What am I doing wrong? Can v 5.0 even work with red mxf footage or am I screwed with this older version as it is?

Also, do you guys usually transcode the footage and cut it on Avid first and there relink to 4k and color correct on Red Cine at the end? I can't figure any of this out for the life of me, any help would be so very welcome...

 

[Nick Morrison]

James, you can't AMA your MXF media. You need to move it into a very specific folder on your computer:

Avid MediaFiles/MXF/1


Let me explain, as Avid media gets very confusing.

1) MXF media is like RAW MEDIA. It's not a more specific video file like a Quicktime. If you export MXF media, then you need to place it in the spot Avid looks for MXF media...which is inside the "Avid MediaFiles" directory it created when it loaded on your CPU. Always throw your media in the "1" folder, structured as I have it above, or in any other numbered subfolder (for example a "6")

Avid MediaFiles/MXF/6

(Different numbers can be useful if you want to organize your media a bit)

To read this media, you need to have a corresponding "bin" that you open inside your project that LINKS to this media and understands what it is. W/out the bin, your sunk.

MXF media is AVID's way of breaking down all the data into much smaller "chunks" so it can process it all faster and more efficiently. It's confusing at first, but leads to more efficient workings later.


2) To make your life A LOT easier, I suggest you get a version of AVID that can AMA R3D's. That's what we do. We AMA them all in, and then transcode with our RRocket, and it works great.

You can also export Avid DNX quicktimes from RCX and AMA/transcode those into Avid as well. They will fly into your Avid.


Hope this helps. Working with MXF media is pretty advanced, so you'll need to really understand it before you dive in.

 

[Roger Viloria]

hey James, check this avid tutorial out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BibBhjrT1Cc

 

[James_Mills]

Nick, you so much for your response. Your kindness is much appreciated, I assure you.

I'm a bit bewildered as to what bin you're talking about though? I dragged the mxf file to the original "1" folder but it still doesn't recognize it, and I believe this is because I have to make a "bin" as you said. In your private message you also said that RCX will create a bin for me (does RCX stand for Red Cine X?), but I'm not sure where this is or if it even did that...

You also said that I should get a newer Avid, is that correct? Which Avid do you recommend I get? I have access to Avid 6 but I've heard it's a very glitchy program, can you confirm or object this? Is editing with Avid 5 going to be significantly more painstaking? And what about getting Adobe Premier instead, as I've heard that recognizes Red files pretty easily. Do you think that would be too hard to learn from scratch after I'm already quite experienced with Avid?

Thanks again, my bad for being so lost...

 

[James_Mills]

I do notice there's a file called "AvidExport.ale" next to the mxf file I exported. What relevance does this have? Is this what you meant when you said Avid would make me a bin? I imported this file directly to a bin but it didn't do anything except create a file that just reads "Media Offline" on my playback screen (and is like 5 minutes long, curiously). Should I try to manually drag this file into my project bins while avid is shut off?

Strange how so much of Avid isn't all scientific or intuitive with this stuff yet the system itself is my favorite editing platform.

 

[MichaelP]

ALE is the logging format for all metadata that is not defined in the AAF file or as part of the MXF wrapper of the essence file itself (essence being the actual picture and/or sound file). ALE is a simple TAB delinted file that allows anyone to easily create the log, and in the bin itself can be used to create the master clips, or merge the information into existing clips, or automatically create subclips when merged into longer maser clips, etc. Lot of uses with an ALE file. In the case of an export from REDCINE you get:

MXF files: this is the essence DNxHD/PCM (picture and sound) wrapped in MXF. MXF wrapped DNxHD is the native format of the Media Composer. There will be one .MXF file for every video and audio track in the clip. For example, if you had VA1A2A3A4 in the original clip, you will have 5 MXF files for that one clip. Users can import from the Media Tool, or import the database msm file, and be up and running as the most basic methof.
AAF: one for every R3D clip which can be video only, audio only, or video and audio depending on original source files, or syncing in RedCine X. AAF. The AAF also contains the V and A relationship of the tracks for each single clip and will automatically relink to the media in the Avid MediaFiles folder when imported. In addition to the metadata for V and A relationships, database and such, it also icludes the filename as TAPE and the time of day timecode as START. For many productions, this may be all they need to work. But any additional metadata will be in the ALE.
ALE: there is one file that contains all the clips from each batch process. Scene, take, BWF, color parameters, absolute timecode, 8 character version of the filename, etc. are all in the ALE file. In order to have a complete set of metadata, it is recommended to merge the ALE into the clips created by the AAF file import. Many productions make the mistake of only importing the ALE file and doing a manual relink which can work, but not for clips that have audio when coming from RCX. The AAF knows about the OPatom1 relationships as the ALE TAB file cannot describe that relationship. For production that work in a collaboration where EDL's, and entire history of sources is needed, ALE is always used.

A system that is rich in metadata tracking and flexibility in reporting may seem more complicated, but what you can get out of it will save plenty of asses in complex workflows.


Michael

 

[MichaelP]

Also see: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?89483-Avid-Digital-Cinema-Whitepaper

Michael

 

[James_Mills]

Ugh, thanks guys but I'm still so confused... not really sure what I should do at this point, this is pretty disheartening

 

[MichaelP]

RCX exports three sets of output:
1. MXF files (put the contents of this folder into the Avid MediaFiles/MXF/1 folder where Avid MediaFiles is at the root level of the hard drive)
2. AAF: Once project is created, create a bin and drag or import all the AAF files from this folder. These will automatically link to the media considering you did step 1 correctly.
3. ALE: optional. Select all clips in the bin from the AAF import, select Import, and do a merge. Before doing so, make sure Import settings for Shot Log are set to merge (last radio button on options pane.

Steps 1 and 2 to get you up and running. 3 for additional metadata if needed.

Michael

 

[James_Mills]

Thank you, Michael, I finally figured it out! Very, very happy... now I just have to figure out how to export mass batches of footage off of Red Cine X and I should be good to go (as well as how to get it back to Red Cine X to finalize color correction after I'm done cutting).

Besides those last few concerns, I have just two remaining questions:

1. Is it even possible to export at 3 or 4K on my version of Avid (Avid v4)? What do you recommend I export my finalized videos at for optimal internet streaming in general?

2. Lastly, do you recommend I make the upgrade to Avid 6 over my beloved Avid 5? Will it be faster and easier to edit Red FOotage with, and is it fairly similar to v5? And is it as glitchy as my friends have claimed it to be?

Honestly, thank you guys so much for your help with this. I just had my first shoot last night and the footage came out insanely good, I'm giddy as can be right now...

 

[MichaelP]

The only "Avid" product that is resolution independent is Avid DS. Neither Media Composer nor Symphony can do any resolution greater than 1920 x 1080. They can access via AMA a file that is larger than 1920 x 1080, but will always get scaled to 1920 x 1080 with either letterbox or pillarbox depending on originating aspect ratio. Those products are built to be broadcast delivery products or offline for higher resolution workflows. That being said, do you need to stream at higher than HD for your productions? Considering the many features shot with Arri Alexa at 1920 x 1080 ProRes (444), I would think that it might fit your back-end streaming needs. If not, then you would look to other tools to do that finishing for you. On PC - then Avid DS, or Premiere Pro, Assimilate, Resolve ($995 version), on Mac, it would be Autodesk Smoke, Resolve ($995 version), Premiere Pro, FCPX, etc.

A tip for batch processing - I tend to batch either by day (if one camera), or by day and camera (if multiple cameras) as I can then organize by bins via the AAF import to be by day which helps align with any reports from camera or sound.

Michael

 

[James_Mills]

A tip for batch processing - I tend to batch either by day (if one camera), or by day and camera (if multiple cameras) as I can then organize by bins via the AAF import to be by day which helps align with any reports from camera or sound.

Michael

Great thinking, good to know. Thanks again, everyone. Can't wait to cut up this first little project of mine... I'll link y'all up to it when I get around to it.

 

[James_Mills]

So here's the first hour shoot ever with my new Battle Tested Scarlet (watch in 1080 obviously). I transcoded it out of RedCine at DNxHD 115 8 bit but was told by a friend that it would looked better at DNxHD 175 10 bit, what are your guys' thoughts on that? Also, this was exported out of Avid as a SOS (same as source) without any color correction. I'm wondering how I can export it and then color correct the files on RedCine...? Or can I only do that before transcoding out of RedCine (ie before ever editing anything on Avid, which would be pretty cumbersome...)

I'm also having issues with ramping, as you can tell. When sped up to 200 fps it doesn't seem as fluid as I hoped (even though shot all of it except the final three dolly shots at 48fps and 1/96th; I'm thinking it's not smooth though maybe because I started the project as a 23.976 instead of a flat 24 so when ramped to 200% it doesn't get a nice round 24...)

Any other thoughts would be great, still figuring this camera out obviously but it's exciting to see how just a simple hour shoot outside of my friend's house looks nicer than anything I've shot on a DSLR in the past year...

 

[Nick Morrison]

So here's the first hour shoot ever with my new Battle Tested Scarlet (watch in 1080 obviously). I transcoded it out of RedCine at DNxHD 115 8 bit but was told by a friend that it would looked better at DNxHD 175 10 bit, what are your guys' thoughts on that? Also, this was exported out of Avid as a SOS (same as source) without any color correction. I'm wondering how I can export it and then color correct the files on RedCine...? Or can I only do that before transcoding out of RedCine (ie before ever editing anything on Avid, which would be pretty cumbersome...)

I'm also having issues with ramping, as you can tell. When sped up to 200 fps it doesn't seem as fluid as I hoped (even though shot all of it except the final three dolly shots at 48fps and 1/96th; I'm thinking it's not smooth though maybe because I started the project as a 23.976 instead of a flat 24 so when ramped to 200% it doesn't get a nice round 24...)

Any other thoughts would be great, still figuring this camera out obviously but it's exciting to see how just a simple hour shoot outside of my friend's house looks nicer than anything I've shot on a DSLR in the past year...

Will def look better 175 10bit, vs 115 8bit. 175 is 10bit and less compressed. Nice piece.

 

[MichaelP]

Visually, compression wise, you would be hard pressed to see the difference between 115 and 175. the 10 bit will offer more for the colorist. You could always switch the project over to 444 and master in 444 10 bit. When it comes to actual color correction, color management, and control - Media Composer is not the deepest toolset. Symphony offers additional functionality in this area such as secondaries, relational (apply corrections to all segments of same criteria), and more control parameters such as channel blending, etc. But even Symphony pales in comparison to dedicated color correction tools such as DaVinci Resolve, Speedgrade, Baselight, etc. when you want as much control over every part of the image with mattes, vignettes, tracking, compositing, etc.

You might want to look at the Baselight Plug-in for Media Composer. There is a free 1 week trial available. It is basically a full Baselight color correction system in your Avid timeline. But it is an AVX effect, so you will be working one shot at a time, then manually applying to each clip as you would in MC versus Symphony. Also note, that as a RED user, you cannot directly access the R3D parameters from the color correction UI in order to extract the best settings for the image to be corrected. And if shooting HDRx, there is not support at all.

For deep color correction and access to all parameters, productions will go to tools like DaVinci Resolve, Baselight, etc. via a conform process (AAF, EDL, etc.) and directly access the original camera file and have control over the RAW image (in this example) as needed. Not to mention the full greater than HD frame size (2K+) for re-comps and such should that be needed. In MC or Symphony, anything greater than 1920 x 1080 is scaled to 1920 x 1080, and you cannot extract portions of the image from the higher resolution file. That needs to be done outside the system.

Depending on your overall needs, turnaround time, delivery specs and such, any of the color correction tools have advantages and disadvantages - usually falling into the traditional "good, fast or cheap" pick two.



Michael

 

[James_Mills]

Also note, that as a RED user, you cannot directly access the R3D parameters from the color correction UI in order to extract the best settings for the image to be corrected. And if shooting HDRx, there is not support at all.

Not to mention the full greater than HD frame size (2K+) for re-comps and such should that be needed. In MC or Symphony, anything greater than 1920 x 1080 is scaled to 1920 x 1080, and you cannot extract portions of the image from the higher resolution file. That needs to be done outside the system.

You're as helpful as ever, Michael, thank you so much. I'm not sure I understand what you mean in the two listed quotes above, however... could you possibly dumb it down a little for my ignorant ears? I think all of this tech talk gets a bit intimidating to me and I start to overthink everything...

Also, can I confirm that you're saying there's no way to get solid color correction as it is with my setup? Is there no way for me to edit on Avid and then export the files in their full compression so I can color correct on RedCine? Or is RedCine just not the best tool for color correction in general? Would there be any way to edit on Avid and then at least color correct the files I used in RedCine and then relink it or something?

Thanks so much, man.

 

[MichaelP]

Related to both of my comments you are questioning; Once you transcode an R3D file to DNxHD, you have committed any of the color parameters and Redcolor science decode to a Rec.709 HD color space. While in many cases, it may not be a bad thing, the image you have is the image you have to work with using the color correction tools within Media Composer. If you want to have full control over the R3D parameters and color science, you need to do so in tools like DaVinci Resolve. The free version of Resolve will let you work at higher than HD resolution, but can only export out as HD. If you need to master out to greater than 2K, then you need the $995 version. The paid version also gives you some additional functionality and GPU performance. So exporting the media out for color correction gains you nothing more than more color correction control -for example you can open Avid media in Resolve and color correct with more contol, but only with the baked in Rec.709 HD files.

If you want to color correct bu using the R3d files, then you would export an EDL or AAF of the sequence and conform in Resolve or similar color correction solution and have all the goodness of the original R3D file at your fingertips for control. Alternatively, you could export an EDL pull list from MC and open back up in Redcine X where you can do a "best light" type color correction as needed, conform back in MC for final touches.

Michael

 

[James_Mills]

If you want to color correct bu using the R3d files, then you would export an EDL or AAF of the sequence and conform in Resolve or similar color correction solution and have all the goodness of the original R3D file at your fingertips for control. Alternatively, you could export an EDL pull list from MC and open back up in Redcine X where you can do a "best light" type color correction as needed, conform back in MC for final touches.

Michael

My apologies, Michael, but I'm still confused... so I just downloaded Resolve Lite and you're saying that I can indeed color correct my raw files even after I edit them on Avid (via transcoding to DNxHD)? In general, may I just ask you what my best option for color correction is with what I have and without a budget to buy anything better? What do you think is the most efficient (for time and color correction; I don't want to spend countless extra days if the difference is mostly negligible) method for me to take from here on out with Avid 5 and Resolve Lite as my only tools?

Again, I can't thank you enough, Michael... your generosity on these boards is peerless and I'm sure I'm not the only person that tremendously appreciates it.

 

[MichaelP]

The difference in color correction between a dedicated color correction tool such as Resolve versus the Media Composer's color correction is very very very large (large x 3). The difference between DaVinci and Symphony color correction is very very large (large x 2). The trade-off (back to advantages of disadvantages of each) is amount of control and precision versus integrated and fast (fewer workflow steps). If you were shooting the typical HD camera that records Rec.709 then I would say you may very well be served by the integrated tools - although Media Composer is still missing secondary color control (ability to isolate and control on restricted range of color) and other basic color correction tools. Symphony adds secondary and other tools such as RGB channel blending, as well as what's called "relational" color correction whis is built for speed when color correcting on tight deadlines or just for added convenience. Dylan Reeve did a nice overview of the differences between MC and Symphony with this video: http://vimeo.com/41270110. Here is an Avid version of the same information: http://community.avid.com/blogs/med...color-correction-and-universal-mastering.aspx

It's hard to answer what will be "negligible" as it depends on what you are trying to achieve with your images. I can only go on the fact that you purchased a Scarlet camera over any other HD based camera which tells me you like to have as much control over the image as possible which is what a RAW based image will give you compared to capturing Rec.709. That being said, it does not mean that MC color correction can do most of the work you need to do - but just know that it is not giving you all the control over what is possible with a dedicated color correction suite of tools over what can be done with an image. Just do a search on YouTube or Google for DaVinci color correction examples or tutorials to see for yourself. Compositing, vignettes. mattes, tracking are all tools of the trade to give you full control over the image. None of these tools are in MC or Symphony.

Another solution is certainly the Baselight AVX plug-in, but it is $995 and gives you the convenience of being integrated. You will see from their demo what is possible: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipqfoGMMJ-0

Just know that learning these tools will take some dedication. Resolve is a great tool to start with as it is free and if you have the time - well then go discover what is possible. There are plenty of videos to get you started with roundtrip between MC and Resolve using an AAF or an EDL. In these scenarios, the DNxHD media you are creating is only for proxy editing, the EDL will point back to the original R3D files in Resolve to give you access to not only the RAW R3D controls and HDRx blending and magic motion, but the full suite of color correction tools on top of that.


Michael

 

[James_Mills]

Awesome advice, that clears up a lot. I think I'm going to mess around with Resolve Lite right now and see what I can do. Just to confirm what you said at the end, I need to export my DNxHD sequence out of Avid as an "EDL" (I'm unfamiliar with this term, will have to do some research on this) and then link the EDL up to Resolve? If there's an easy sequence for going about this (akin to your last bit of help on how to export as an AAF and then drag the folders in accordingly) than I'd love to hear it, but something tells me it's a tad more complex and will take some more research on my own...