Assimilate has released SCRATCH RED Pre-Post

[Mark L. Pederson]

Mark, first I would like to say that I truly respect you and how you contribute to the RED community. I try to read all your posts.

Re your comparison, I believe it is a very different business.

I agree with digitalfx in terms of having to set up a different kind of support system. That can cost money. It depends on the level of support of course. You get personal and very good support when you buy Scratch today. That wouldn't be possible if it was sub 10.000. But maybe they could sell you a premium support deal as a separate product?

But a Ferrari is a hand built car that take up to a 1000 man hours to finish (at least it used to be that way). A copy of a software has no "real" value. That must be a big difference for the sales strategy and potential income? I wasn't really paying attention in economy class, so I should probably shut up.

We have seen great fluctuation in software prices in the past. 3D software used to be quite expensive. I always thought that the market and "how many seats can we sell" set the price, in a way. Lets say a year ago there was a market worldwide to sell 500 SCRATCH-licenses. (Its just a number, I don't know). Two years later RED has sold 5000 cameras. Each owner is a possible buyer. Now if they had that market to work with when they priced their software, maybe the price could had been different.

Its just interesting theory to me, I am old enough to not cry if I don't get all the toys I want for Christmas.

Cheers,
Fredrik

Well ... first of all, I was joking.

Second, I was not "commenting" on Scratch's price - which is a steal compared to other systems - I (thought) I was just poking at how everybody wants everything for cheaper, and cheaper - and SO DO I.

But, as other folks have commented - it is not just about HOW MANY SEATS - it's about support and development.

I also think that many people who are on REDUSER every day think that everybody on REDUSER represents the "market" - I am not so sure that is entirely true.

Certainly, a bigger market of folks interested in a high-end color tool for sure - and yes, Scratch is there, right place, right time, right technology (flashback ... Sundance 2006 - inside joke) - and I am sure they are considering their options carefully -

And yes, I would buy a Ferrari for $30,000.

 

[Anthony Gratl]

I had the same question about Mac support for Lucas. Apparently the bottleneck for Scratch on Apple is the graphics card drivers. This is holding back many of the realtime features of Scratch and preventing them from releasing a Mac version of their RT grading engine.

I personally would prefer to keep everything on Apple. And I see this as a huge issue that I don't understand about Red's strategy in general. Red is quicktime centric so you best option for cutting is currently Final Cut Pro a Mac Only product. But Redcode post is otherwise currently Assimilate centric, and the final finishing product Scratch is a Windows only product.

So it seems that if you want to do any real DI work, you need not only to invest in the camera and a Mac, but also in a heavy PC. Most post houses will have no problem with this. But it cuts out individuals like me, who wish to provide an entire workflow with a camera and no compromises other than the current limitations of hardware.

As Mike Curtis of HDforIndies.com describes it in this recent blog entry:

Once it is no longer strictly necessary to make specialized hardware to achieve a task (sufficiently quickly), and it can be done on high end desktop systems, supplanting custom boards with the CPU and GPU, high end vendors have just witnessed the fuse being lit on their own demise. Maybe not immediately, but certainly long term unless they change their ways. Unless they radically adapt…and history shows most do not. ** Few companies have successfully shifted gears from low volume specialty vendor to higher volume mass vendor. Witness SGI - once king of heavy iron hardware, they’ve dwindled to market meaninglessness for all but the highest end markets. And even they switched over to base a lot of their equipment on commodity hardware.​

Read the whole thing here: http://boxoffice.com/blogs/mike-curtis/

I hope Assimilate takes notice. I think they should be marketing to the little guys today. A 50K system is not neccessary to do color grading, I'm looking at most of what I need today in RedCine in realtime on a Macbook Pro for free. We don't need realtime 2K. But if we can't get secondaries, scaffolds, conforming and finishing from Assimilate for a reasonable price and on a system we already have we will be forced to find other solutions to our color grading needs. If Assimilate had a Scratch system that was affordable for the Final Cut Pro set, not only would every Red camera owner buy one. But every Red camera renter, or Redcode on Final Cut Pro editor would also buy it.

High end color grading is a "Red Ocean". Mass market color grading and support for Redcode today is a "Blue Ocean". At least that's how it seems to me.

Plus consider also the wisdom of investing 50K turnkey solution... unlike a camera it has almost no resale value.

Based on what I see from Assimilte now they are ready to step up to the plate. They're GUI is already cross platform, so it seems are many of the low level elements of their software. They have one rendering engine it seems, that is Windows driver specific. But otherwise they seem ready for both platforms.

I'd like to see Assimilate offer a software only solution for Red and Mac users, that is not focused on realtime and allows a Red owner operator to do all of the work of creating a color grade project, so that it can be delivered ready for the realtime finishing touches on a seperate heavy lifting system at the very end. That means, primaries, secondaries, scaffolds, conform etc. I also think that in the near future, that last step won't be neccessary.

While we are at it. I hope Assimilate also steps up to another plate: creation of Digital Cinema packages for current digital theatrical projection directly from their conforming software. You want to make history... make that capability available to everyone that can afford to shoot with Red One and change the entire industry.

IBloom

Really well put. I feel exactly the same way about paying an additional 30-50k to finish my Red Films. We will be forced to find other solutions, and will find them. Hopefully Assimilate moves quickly to cover the area of people like us who aren't running high end post shops, which ultimately is the market that Red is gunning for, as Jim has stated numerous times. The idea is to be able to finish at home. My 2 cents are that Assimiliate (and all the other DI places) should consider that they are in the same position as existed pre FCP, where you had to shell out 100K for a digital NLE. FCP changed all of that. The same thing will happen with DI. It's already happening on the production side with the likes of Red. And if companies don't like that, tough. Some twenty year old whose fed up with expensive software will code something that's free, and it might not work quite as well, but it'll work, and most of us will go that route instead of coughing up even 10K. Personally I think that Scratch should be under 3K, and then they'll have a market share for the future of ALL digital cinema finishing solutions, not just for high end users (the notion of high end and who belongs in that segment is also changing rapidly). As far as tech support goes, if you sell Scratch to all the FCP, Avid and Premiere editors, that's a lot of seats out the door. You'll be able to setup a nice tech department. And the wallet is where part of the digital revolution takes place, n'est pas?

 

[Fredrik Harreschou]

Actually, I'm not that concerned with the price of Scratch. As many people say here, its a professional tool for professionals. If you could only buy RED and SCRATCH together for $70.000 a lot of people/companies would do it and be super happy with what they got and making money as well.

I'm seriously considering this, I have a background in post and believe the portable RED PrePost package would be very sought after here. Its not that its really expensive, even for a small production company like my own.
(Actually, car prices (and everything else for that matter) are insane in Norway. A Suzuki XL7, I have four kids and needed a big car, cost in todays currency with a LOT of taxes almost $80,000.!!!)

But, (and this is the BIG BUT ) - if I decide to invest that amount of money, I want to be sure this is not like combustion and what happened to the pricing of that. Not the same amounts, I know, but I bought C for $4,999 when it came out. The year after it was $999 (or something like that). A little after that they just dumped edit, which was part of a five figure investment. I guess I want to trust software companies and their pricing, but I have been burnt before...

 

[M Most]

Personally I think that Scratch should be under 3K, and then they'll have a market share for the future of ALL digital cinema finishing solutions, not just for high end users (the notion of high end and who belongs in that segment is also changing rapidly).

Well, let's review. Final Touch was offered (in an HD version, which quite frankly would satisfy the needs of about 90% of the people here) at $5000, sold maybe 100 copies, and essentially caused the company to be sold. It's getting a bit tiring to read all of these posts that refuse to admit the bottom line fact: You basically want free stuff. And for some reason I can't seem to figure out, you seem to think that companies should give it to you because the hardware you run it on is cheap. Of course, even if they did, that wouldn't likely stop you from inundating them with support demands, and bad mouthing them when something didn't work. You have absolutely no idea of the development, support, or administrative costs involved in producing a product - and you seem blissfully unaware of the pricing of the competition as well - and yet here you are purporting to set the price for it.

Nobody has some sort of God given right to make movies. As with everything, you have to pay to play. You want talent to be willing to work with you, and yet you want their tools to be free. For an industry to survive, there has to be a structure in place that allows those who work in an industry to make a living. That requires things to have perceived value. Software - good software - takes thousands and thousands of man hours of conceptualizing, coding, debugging, and then recoding and debugging again. Digital intermediate finishing is not exactly a general purpose consumer oriented discipline, and thus has a very limited audience. That audience is professionals who understand what it takes to deliver high end finished elements that are acceptable to technically and artistically demanding clients - as opposed to video editing tools that are used for everything from major studio pictures to home movies and YouTube videos. That makes editing software a commodity, as it targets home users who have nothing to do with a specific industry. You can't compare the two. Percentage wise, compared to its competition, Scratch is about the same as the Red camera - basically about a third of the cost of much of its most obvious competition. But you're not looking at that. You're looking at a dollar number and complaining because you can't personally afford it. Well, I'm a private pilot, and I'd like to own a helicopter - but I'm not out there saying that the price of a Jet Ranger should be $3000 because that would be ridiculous. So I'd go to those whose business it is to own and operate them and rent when I want it. Not everything has to be "ownable" by individuals, especially when those individuals don't have a pressing need for it every day. That's why a post industry exists. And if some people here would get over their notion that everything has to be free or close to it, and they started understanding why things have the value they do, then maybe they'd understand how a society and an industry can survive. Greed is not a way for that to happen. Paying fair value is.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Well, let's review. Final Touch was offered (in an HD version, which quite frankly would satisfy the needs of about 90% of the people here) at $5000, sold maybe 100 copies.

can you prove that?

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Well, let's review. Final Touch was offered (in an HD version, which quite frankly would satisfy the needs of about 90% of the people here) at $5000, sold maybe 100 copies, and essentially caused the company to be sold. It's getting a bit tiring to read all of these posts that refuse to admit the bottom line fact: You basically want free stuff. And for some reason I can't seem to figure out, you seem to think that companies should give it to you because the hardware you run it on is cheap. Of course, even if they did, that wouldn't likely stop you from inundating them with support demands, and bad mouthing them when something didn't work. You have absolutely no idea of the development, support, or administrative costs involved in producing a product - and you seem blissfully unaware of the pricing of the competition as well - and yet here you are purporting to set the price for it.

Nobody has some sort of God given right to make movies. As with everything, you have to pay to play. You want talent to be willing to work with you, and yet you want their tools to be free. For an industry to survive, there has to be a structure in place that allows those who work in an industry to make a living. That requires things to have perceived value. Software - good software - takes thousands and thousands of man hours of conceptualizing, coding, debugging, and then recoding and debugging again. Digital intermediate finishing is not exactly a general purpose consumer oriented discipline, and thus has a very limited audience. That audience is professionals who understand what it takes to deliver high end finished elements that are acceptable to technically and artistically demanding clients - as opposed to video editing tools that are used for everything from major studio pictures to home movies and YouTube videos. That makes editing software a commodity, as it targets home users who have nothing to do with a specific industry. You can't compare the two. Percentage wise, compared to its competition, Scratch is about the same as the Red camera - basically about a third of the cost of much of its most obvious competition. But you're not looking at that. You're looking at a dollar number and complaining because you can't personally afford it. Well, I'm a private pilot, and I'd like to own a helicopter - but I'm not out there saying that the price of a Jet Ranger should be $3000 because that would be ridiculous. So I'd go to those whose business it is to own and operate them and rent when I want it. Not everything has to be "ownable" by individuals, especially when those individuals don't have a pressing need for it every day. That's why a post industry exists. And if some people here would get over their notion that everything has to be free or close to it, and they started understanding why things have the value they do, then maybe they'd understand how a society and an industry can survive. Greed is not a way for that to happen. Paying fair value is.

Take the same argumentation to the subject of High End CAMERAS/ NLEs....and maybe you will realize, that your point of view is a little bit "retarded".


If everybody can afford the same tools, then it is possible to compare....and then the very skilled people will always make money. If You are afraid of these Guys...then this is good...be afraid. They are scary

 

[M Most]

Take the same argumentation to the subject of High End CAMERAS....and maybe you will realize, that your point of view is a little bit "retarded".

I thought I did.

"Percentage wise, compared to its competition, Scratch is about the same as the Red camera - basically about a third of the cost of much of its most obvious competition."

Or did you not notice that because you were more interested in hurling a personal insult at me?

 

[JohnF]

What's happened the concept of being patient?

You still can cut 4k raw on your low cost systems it just takes time to process the images. If you don't have the budget for faster speed processing then you have to plan accordingly. This means keeping your shooting ratio under control, good logging and general good management of your shoot and post workflow.

Yes I want faster processing but I also remember when, in the early 90's, a computer once told me that what I asked it to do would take an estimated 3 months render time. (I hit stop and found an alternative way of achieving what I needed!) Not to mention that even now with SD and 1080 low cost edit systems (FCP, adobe etc) require sometimes significant rendering time to do colour correction whereas high budget equipment can do the same in real-time.

Remember this is 4k not miniDV. (and as far as I can see the processing times are pretty similar to film shooting so for the high quality shoots not much has changed in regards to time taken - only that it'll only get faster!)

JohnF

 

[M Most]

can you prove that?

Not directly. But I was fairly close to the owners of Silicon Color and the number is not much different than that. More interesting is the fact that even at that price, most of the buyers were companies, not individuals - this supporting the theory that individuals, for the most part, have a very low breaking point (price wise) for software purchases. Price any software over, say $1200, and you'll likely have very few individuals buying it.

 

[M Most]

What's happened the concept of being patient?

You still can cut 4k raw on your low cost systems it just takes time to process the images. If you don't have the budget for faster speed processing then you have to plan accordingly. This means keeping your shooting ratio under control, good logging and general good management of your shoot and post workflow.

Good points, John. In point of fact, a combination of tools - say, Red's conversion software, Final Cut, After Effects, and perhaps Shake can get you everything Scratch does. Of course, it will take a lot longer and require an understanding of a pipeline that can make that work. But if you have no delivery deadline, no need for professional support or advice in terms of coloring or editing abilities, and no budget, that's one way to do it. Systems like Scratch and its competition are made for use in the post industry, where deadlines and technical (and aesthetic) demands are a way of life. It's not about getting it done, it's about getting it done efficiently and correctly the first time, as well as making a creative contribution. If that's not your situation, John is absolutely right - there are other ways to accomplish the task(s). It's just going to take a lot longer.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Or did you not notice that because you were more interested in hurling a personal insult at me?

i have nothing against you...
and i dont think that assimilate will/should sell their products for less.
Because a product is worth the price people pay for whatever reason ( saving time for example).

But history shows....some one will come along and offer a product with high quality for the "masses". The masses are IMO in this case a lot of individuals, small companys etc....who already make their living with Lower end/ midrange products.

Lets take a look to history
See the history of cars, tvs, mobile phones, computers, photography, NLEs, hardware etc.....and the company who made it for the masses made a lot of money.
See HENRY FORD. HOWARD HUGHES. BILL GATES.


But on the other Hand, in every market there is still a PREMIUM...but this premium will become a standard some years later.

EXCEPTION CARS: I think a Ferrari will be Premium forever, you are buying a damn
good car, but 1st of all you buy a feeling.
EXCEPTION DESIGN: Gucci will be expensive forever.

But i will not pay for a feeling...i will pay for technology...and this gets cheaper everyday

 

[Chris Parker]

Man, some people. Mmmost....your post made so much sense. Scratch is ALREADY priced at a very very fair price compared to the competition. Could they sell more copies if they sold it for 3 grand a pop? Sure they could. Could they stay in business doing it? Who the hell knows? Do you evolve? If you are so gung ho about pricing a piece of DI finishing software, go write one yourself and give it away. But do NOT sit there and throw stones at the likes of Assimilate, when you know nothing about them.

mmmost's point of renting when you need makes so much sense, it is hard to belive you guys are missing that point. You say you want to make movies and finish them for theatrical release, at home. Well guess what, one day in the (not too distant) future, you will be able to, all on a Mac. Hell, i wouldn't be totally surprised to see that day at the next NAB. NAB 2009 at the latest IMO.

Until then however, if you can't afford the 50 grand it takes to get a system, don't whine and moan about it. Just rent from an established post house when you are ready to conform.

Or use REDCine and FCP, and deal with the problems for now.

 

[M Most]

Lets take a look to history
See the history of cars, tvs, mobile phones, computers, photography, NLEs, hardware etc.....and the company who made it for the masses made a lot of money.
See HENRY FORD. HOWARD HUGHES. BILL GATES

Or go under.

See SILICON COLOR, GATEWAY, ACER, ZILOG, LAKER AIRWAYS and others I can't recall at the moment.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Mmmost....your post made so much sense. Scratch is ALREADY priced at a very very fair price compared to the competition. Could they sell more copies if they sold it for 3 grand a pop? Sure they could. Could they stay in business doing it? Who the hell knows?

1. you are right, it is really cheap compared to the competition.

2. I dont moun about their prices, like i said, if someone wants to pay, let him.

3. You agree, that in the not so distant future there will happen something in the DI market. Now lets think about a Posthouse right now.
Can they afford SCRATCH ? lets say yes.
Would be cool to have it? Yes.
Is it really cheap compared to competition? Yes.

But the guy thinks 50 k is still 50 k....or 100 k if he wants the stuff from the competition.

Money is invested.
What do you think will happen, like you said, if someone comes along with
a product that has the same for 5k?
____________________________________________________________


Ok but lets look at Assimilates situation....
they did it, they were the someone who comes along.

Instead of 100 k - 150 k, they want around 50k.
Sounds good....this should mean in my argumentation that every posthouse
would scream for SCRATCH....did they?

SCRATCH gets more and more seats every year? Yes, i think so.
Did they hit the DI Market like a bomb? not exactly...there are in Germany some SCRATCH Stations...but its the minority.

What is the reason for this? There arent as many Post houses, as Dops or Indiefilmakers etc.... is there a need for it?
Yes...see several threads.

I think SCRATCH cant allow themselves to give their software for 5 k away....then the little but growing number of 50 K seats were worthless.

Then the Postworld would be divided to 150 k and 5k Modules. But Scratch wants the Bigfishes. A lot of posthouses will buy SCRATCH because of RED...The only risk is, if say someone offers a 5k Version, and the REST OF THE BIG BOYS get their integration of redcode...then scratch would be lost maybe between these two borders?

 

[Chris Parker]

Good points berlin. i think we agree on lots of points. my main point is that right now, today, scratch is a great deal at 55K.

Now, your question about what would happen to the post houses who invest in a 50 - 100K solution today when a newer, cheaper solution becomes available? Well, many of them will survive just fine, same like all those post houses still running their 100K AVIDs, years after the Final Cut revolution.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Or go under.

See SILICON COLOR, GATEWAY, ACER, ZILOG, LAKER AIRWAYS and others I can't recall at the moment.

The companys that went under....personally i dont care for them...other companys
made it possible for me to drive a car, have a mobile, telecommunication, computers etc., a RED

I am the customer and will take the product that has the best price/ quality ratio for me.

 

[M Most]

But Scratch wants the Bigfishes. A lot of posthouses will buy SCRATCH because of SCRATCH....The only risk if someone offer the same for much less...then scratch would be lost maybe between these two borders?

I think both you and others here are a bit confused about who Assimilate's customers are and what they use the product for.

Scratch is, first and foremost, a data handler. The data it handles is image files, and what it does is sort, keep track of, play back in real time with color management, and manipulate those files. Not speaking for Lucas or Assimilate here, but I would venture to say that many of their customers - including some of the best known names in the DI market - never touch any of the color correction tools in the package. Rather, they use it for organizing data, playing back file sequences, and in a number of cases, for conforming files that are color corrected on other, mostly high end systems. In fact, out of all the seats currently in use in Los Angeles, I would guess that not much more than 50% of them are being used as "turnkey DI" systems (Lucas, please correct this if I'm wrong). So for many of its users, Scratch is a "Swiss Army Knife" type of tool - it does a lot of very useful things in a file based post environment. Color correction and DI finishing is only one of those things, and to be honest, not the one it was originally designed for.

And as far as "resale value," or the potential future threat of cheaper solutions, well, that's what business decisions are all about. The actual cost of anything is only an issue relative to what it can generate for your business. If you want to be in the DI business today, you have a few choices in terms of the equipment available to do that efficiently and reliably. You make your choice on features to an extent, but basically you buy something that can make money for you within whatever time frame you set for the investment. You need "X" number of features to finish with you in order to generate "X" numbers of dollars from the room. You weigh that against the cost of creating and operating the room for, say, 2 years, and decide if that's a sensible business investment. If something cheaper comes along, that doesn't make what you have any less capable. It means that when you replace it, the replacement cost is lower - but it also means that the hourly or daily rate you can get for that service is likely lower as well (that's all about the perceived value I talked about earlier). At that point, you decide if it's worth continuing to operate that room and offer that service. But none of that really has any impact on the original investment decision. It's all based on the business you believe is available to you, and the time frame for that available business.

 

[M Most]

The companys that went under....personally i dont care for them...other companys
made it possible for me to drive a car, have a mobile, telecommunication, computers etc., a RED

I am the customer and will take the product that has the best price/ quality ratio for me.

Well, then, I'm happy for you. But the point I was trying to make was that innovative products and cheap prices are not in themselves a ticket to automatic success. They can also be a ticket to oblivion.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

I think both you and others here are a bit confused about who Assimilate's customers are and what they use the product for.

Scratch is, first and foremost, a data handler. The data it handles is image files, and what it does is sort, keep track of, play back in real time with color management, and manipulate those files. Not speaking for Lucas or Assimilate here, but I would venture to say that many of their customers - including some of the best known names in the DI market - never touch any of the color correction tools in the package. Rather, they use it for organizing data, playing back file sequences, and in a number of cases, for conforming files that are color corrected on other, mostly high end systems. In fact, out of all the seats currently in use in Los Angeles, I would guess that not much more than 50% of them are being used as "turnkey DI" systems (Lucas, please correct this if I'm wrong). So for many of its users, Scratch is a "Swiss Army Knife" type of tool - it does a lot of very useful things in a file based post environment. Color correction and DI finishing is only one of those things, and to be honest, not the one it was originally designed for.

And as far as "resale value," or the potential future threat of cheaper solutions, well, that's what business decisions are all about. The actual cost of anything is only an issue relative to what it can generate for your business. If you want to be in the DI business today, you have a few choices in terms of the equipment available to do that efficiently and reliably. You make your choice on features to an extent, but basically you buy something that can make money for you within whatever time frame you set for the investment. You need "X" number of features to finish with you in order to generate "X" numbers of dollars from the room. You weigh that against the cost of creating and operating the room for, say, 2 years, and decide if that's a sensible business investment. If something cheaper comes along, that doesn't make what you have any less capable. It means that when you replace it, the replacement cost is lower - but it also means that the hourly or daily rate you can get for that service is likely lower as well (that's all about the perceived value I talked about earlier). At that point, you decide if it's worth continuing to operate that room and offer that service. But none of that really has any impact on the original investment decision. It's all based on the business you believe is available to you, and the time frame for that available business.

1. you are right about buisness decissions.
Thats one of the reason why some companys go under.

2. Scratch is first of all a data handler....good.
people use it for the purposes you mentioned...good.

But SCRATCH is the ONLY DI software that CAN Color Correct redcode files.
People who will buy a SCRATCH System, will not buy just because of their Data Handling abbilities....because it can handle CONFORM and CC REDCODE NATIVELY. The PRE RED TIME is gone.
SCRATCH should focus on not just beeing a data handler.they want to be used as FULL FINISHING SYTEM. IMO They are capable of doing this right now.

3. just calm down, i wanna have a good discussion....not a "fight".

 

[Thomas Mathai]

How many know what the real steps are to a DI? How many people are involved in your DI workflow besides a colorist?

From setting up in an empty room to final output, there is a lot more than what some 20 year old can code.

Scratch Pre Post is $55K for a working system, not just software or hardware. I can expect it to be a fast system that would take minimal time to integrate into a workflow. That's more important to some people than buying all the parts and spending time to figure out how to make it work themselves.

If you want just software, there is Color. Apple will eventually get it a lot more stable than it is now with more funtionality.

I can't see why footage can't be edited in RedCode, and brought into Color in RedCode. I'm still on a G5, so I can't really test that theory myself.