Arri Rumor

[David Mullen ASC]

It's funny how some people complain when companies don't improve their products fast enough, and others complain when they improve them too soon after the previous product. I guess it depends on whether you were the earlier or the later buyer...

Sure, if ARRI really is going to release three 3.5K camera models in the spring and then obsolete them all with a 4K camera in the fall, I'd say that was a poor business decision on their part.

But I don't really think that's exactly what is going to happen -- particularly since the roll-out for all three Alexa cameras are not at the same time anyway. Their own website says that the A-EV comes out in June, the A-EV Plus in September and the A-OV Plus in December.
http://www.arridigital.com/teaser

So how can they obsolete all three 3.5K cameras in September when the final one doesn't even come out until December???

Perhaps they are thinking that the A-OV Plus, being the top-end camera with an optical viewfinder option and a 4x3 sensor for anamorphic work, may end up with a higher resolution sensor than the cheaper A-EV and A-EV Plus? I don't know, but certainly ARRI will eventually announce a higher-resolution camera, just as Red eventually announced a higher resolution camera. I just don't buy this rumor's timeline, that's all. Even if ARRI is working on a higher resolution camera -- which only makes sense -- they are not going to trip up the roll-out of their Alexa camera line by announcing it prematurely. It will take all of 2010 to get these cameras out onto the market, so I doubt they would release an even higher resolution camera until the following year, and even then, it would be touted as a higher-end addition to their line-up. After all, the 5K Epic doesn't obsolete the 3K Scarlet, and the later 6K, 9K, 28K Epics don't necessarily replace the 5K Epics. Perhaps ARRI just plans of offering multiple resolution cameras and the first will be these 3.5K RAW cameras.

I also agree with Tom that a jump from 3.5K to 4K doesn't make a lot of sense. Since ARRI feels that you need to shoot at least 2.5K RAW to make a good 2K master, they would logically surmise they need a 5K RAW camera if intended for 4K mastering.

There's no way around the feeling that whatever you buy, something better will get released soon afterwards.

 

[Grady Wilson]

I just got off the phone with someone in Germany as well Carsten. Your sources name doesn't begin with a "L" does it?

Looks like this one is true, and the are also announcing some new Lighting products in the next few weeks. I also heard a few stories on the state of things over there that I probably should not repeat, except that another one of the lead camera accessory designers has jumped shipped ( J.E left the company about a month ago as well remember)

And one more thing on Avatar. There is alot of angry movie goers out there that have complained that in the IMAX presentation the movie was out of focus and hazy. Do a search; it is pretty severe. Some people blame the 3D, but if you experienced it, you would know it was the lack of resolution. It still will make a bazillion dollars, but as of now I read that it has the highest ticket refund request in Imax movie history.

 

[Carsten Fenstermacher]

I also agree with Tom that a jump from 3.5K to 4K doesn't make a lot of sense. Since ARRI feels that you need to shoot at least 2.5K RAW to make a good 2K master, they would logically surmise they need a 5K RAW camera if intended for 4K mastering.

There's no way around the feeling that whatever you buy, something better will get released soon afterwards.

Agreed. Here's hoping for a 5k Arri!

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

at Red everything is subject to change, but the difference is i trust red,
hey i have the roadmap for the next 3 years with epic28k coming...
there a lot of people waiting for arridigi cams with global shutter, ovf, high iso and a nice DR, but while they wait i am shooting today and know what i will shoot tomorow (high iso and a nice DR)...and one more important thing: post worklfow. r3d is pretty much integrated in every workflow.

the difference between arri and red will be formfactor.....i am waiting for the new RED CAT, a bad ass baseplate for epic

 

[Casey Green]

What I find interesting is just how far RED has come to be in this conversation within only 2 or so years.

I love Arri, but RED sure has given them a run for their money...

 

[Michael Bravin]

In case you didn't know Arri is a bit of a disaster right now internally, level headed is the last word I would ever use to explain the two families. But that put aside, I would still disagree with you that they don't make mistakes; The Compact Primes; as much as some people may find them novel, are a complete and total commercial failure.

Grady
The compact primes are not ARRI lenses, they are Zeiss lenses.

So while you find them problematic, I can see no rational reason that their success or failure is at all related to anything having to do with ARRI.

I respect your right to your opinion and perspective on ARRI, even though I do not share your pessimism, obviously. If you aren't watching what ARRI will do in the next 12 months you will be missing a lot of compelling and exciting products, proposals and events in our industry. Pronunciations about ARRI's demise come from some very misinformed sources, i'd say.

ARRI has a 60 year history of excellent products and has been the key player in the motion picture business for most of that time. Underestimating ARRI's capabilities and technology is silly. AFTER the Alexa cameras ship and AFTER you see their price/performance, lets talk. Until then its all academic anyway.




In seclusion and preparation high above Maui... in sublime Kula.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Well, one thing is for certain -- there will be a lot of interesting chat over at the ARRI booth at NAB...

 

[Michael Bravin]

This is not a rumor. My friend was there. He did not dream this up.

Phil

Not a fine point...If he repeated what he heard
it is not a rumor that he heard it.
If you repeat what he told you he heard,
it is a rumor.
It is not accurate, as you understood it and repeated it
I can tell you that. Directly. For sure.





In seclusion and preparation high above Maui... in sublime Kula.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

This was the original rumor:

I just talked to a friend who was at a special private presentation at Plus Camerimage Lodz 2009 and was told that Arri showed a new 4K prototype called the D27 that obsoletes the three cameras they will release this summer. The D27 is supposed to be released end of this year. He also said that Arri will lower the price of the 2K cameras for summer to try to move them out before the announcement of the 4K camera in September. These are the things that make me happy to be a Red customer.

It doesn't make sense -- the third and most expensive Alexa 3.5K camera isn't even scheduled to come out until December 2010, there is a six-month period that these three cameras are coming out in, they aren't all hitting the market in the summer at the same time. And the odds are very low for three different camera types to be ready for release in the same month.

This fact is why the rumor smells false, or has been misinterpreted. Sure, it's possible (even probable) that ARRI has another higher-resolution camera in the works, sure it's possible they will announce it eventually, sure it's possible they will cut the prices of the Alexa series -- but to release three new cameras in one summer and a fourth camera by December that specifically obsoletes the cameras from the summer? That part just doesn't seem plausible or logical. But stranger things have happened.

 

[Dave Blackham]

Im sure Arri wont get this wrong, they are a great company. Some times new equipment is released to market and not adopted as the market takes a while to change its standards so 2K will be here a while yet.

While we about discussing possible new cameras, if theres a re-design going on, could I encourage some attention to nice ergonomic design ala Aaton rather than modelling cameras on the product of Broseley Brick works. Id like the camera to fit the user not the user to the camera.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Sure, it's a great rumor.

Also it's not so easy in Age of Digital...

 

[Pawel Achtel]

As Jim and David well said, Arri has been in this businesss long enough and they sure know how to make great products, heck, the best products in our industry!

As it was stated, it is not the resolution of the camera that will decide whether or not it will succeed. There are other, more important, factors and the reason Arri was and is successful in this business is because they have lots and lots of experience and know-how.

Counting pixels in a camera is like buying a car for its maximum speed. :driving: I personally like Arri products. They are like the BMW or the Porsche compared to the American Corvette. The 'vette is a lot cheaper and can be made go faster, looks good, it's great value for money, but the Beemer is a refined pinacle of German engineering, experience and thought, it's reliable and handles beautifully and will last longer.

There are so many other factors in a camera and, frankly, I welcome any new product from Arri because, at least, it will give us one more choice. It can only be a good thing. :biggrin:

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

For one thing, you can uprez HD and 2K to 4K -- it's simply softer than 4K material. Sure, if something was originated in a format capable of 4K resolution, it should be mastered in that format, but that doesn't mean there is no market for lower resolution material. We have a decade of movies in 2K now -- what, no one is ever going to watch them once we have 4K delivery and projection?

And again, WHAT ABOUT AVATAR? That movie was bumped up from HD to IMAX for god's sake, and people seem to be going to the movie theaters to see it even though it is not 4K resolution. Are you saying that once 4K delivery and projection is available, no one is going to rewatch "Avatar" in 4K because it's originated in 2K, even though they are willing to watch it in IMAX today, which is even more of an uprezzing than 2K to 4K?

And finally, there are many more hours of dramatic television shot worldwide every day compared to features that does not need to master to 4K. Everyone here is so theatrical feature film centric, they forget this. Shows like "CSI", "NCIS", "Vampire Diaries", whatever, do not need to be mastered to 4K. (Not to mention commercials for those shows.) And there is a market for cameras to shoot these shows that Panavision, ARRI, RED, etc. can and do supply.

Again, the production market is big enough to support more than one resolution.

Either that, or you guys think that James Cameron was some sort of idiot not to future-proof "Avatar" for 4K. If so, he's one rich idiot...

Look I'm all for more resolution, but let's get real about assessing the state of the industry and its needs.

David -

As usual, an excellent post and I agree with you. However, I think if you forget about directors, DPs, and productions renting equipment for a moment and think about BUYING and SELLING cameras - it's really about ROI. The new ARRI cameras are targeted to rental companies and I believe EPIC is as well at it's price point. I think we will see a bunch of owner/operators who bump up from Red Ones to Epics - but, I think Scarlet and upgraded RED ONEs will primarily server the owner/operator market.

Rental houses need to have confidence that they can make their investment back as well as a profit on new camera purchases. This really means they need to believe that DPs will continue to want to work with these tools as opposed to new tools entering the market for a long enough period to profit. That's getting trickier and riskier for them. Now that the "sensor is the filmstock" - it's no longer about that same 35mm camera working with the new Kodak stock.

Rental houses love ARRI. The question now is will the DPs continue to demand ARRI cameras over others.

 

[Carsten Fenstermacher]

Rental houses need to have confidence that they can make their investment back as well as a profit on new camera purchases. This really means they need to believe that DPs will continue to want to work with these tools as opposed to new tools entering the market for a long enough period to profit. That's getting trickier and riskier for them. Now that the "sensor is the filmstock" - it's no longer about that same 35mm camera working with the new Kodak stock.

That's where the gap between epic and the a-ev seems too small for the price difference. if a-ev is 1 more stop latitude over epic and 3k(3072 wide according to the last redcentre but 2k rgb output only?) vs 5k raw, that makes it far from a rental slam dunk if i buy an a-ev. That's what's driving me nuts!!!
Give me 1 more stop plus better resolution if I'm paying 2-3 times more. Come on Arri, you can do it!

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

if a-ev is 1 more stop latitude over epic

You SURE about that ....:reddevil:

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Give me 1 more stop plus better resolution if I'm paying 2-3 times more. Come on Arri, you can do it!

Well .. the kicker is ... the client (show/feature) doesn't effectively pay more for one camera over the other. The show has the camera budget. Let's say it's $20K a week on an episodic. Now, Line Producer, DP, etc - haggle to get the best package they can for the number they have. F35, EPIC, new ARRI - doesn't matter - it's $20K a week or less all in.

 

[David M]

Er, 'scuse me guys,
Guys?

Avatar wasn't really shot on anything, at least the parts that are making the gazillions. I thought the live action stuff was pretty vin ordinaire myself.
Nothing to email home about anyway.

Stick to the script. For all practical purposes, Avatar is no more 2K HD originated that Cloudy with a chance of Meatballs It has no real relevance to the RED or any other camera.

 

[Carsten Fenstermacher]

You SURE about that ....:reddevil:

half stop?

 

[Jeff Coatney]

Just because Arri is great at making film cameras, doesn't mean that they'll be equally as good at making imaging sensors. We're talking about a company whose core intellectual property and human resources have been focused on film technology. Keep in mind one central truth here: Arri makes machines that move the imaging medium through the camera, their expertise is temporal and they can move this medium (film) at very high tolerances and with a very high degree of accuracy.

When you talk about sensors, you're talking about Kodak's, Agfa's, and Fuji's central focus: resolving the image and actually capturing the picture. I find it fascinating and a little hard to believe that Arri can suddenly just switch gears and be able to make the best imaging sensors possible in a single generation. Arri doesn't make the emulsion, others do. Arri just transports the film through their little metal clockworks. This is not the background you need to make imaging sensors. Can they do it? Of course they can. But can they right out of the gate create the best sensor ever, like so many people think they're capable of? I seriously doubt it. They're up against the same development challenges as Red was. In a sense, they have to start from scratch. Ramp up personnel and new equipment or contract the job out.

It would not surprise me if they announced the initial 3.5K cameras to put their horse in the race with models that they felt comfortable with putting their name on. When the new camera in question became viable, they have the option to put their eggs in that basket. The first three cameras may not even make it to market: products get cancelled all the time. They are not required to stay committed to those initial models if they haven't made them yet.

I am a fan of Arri too. And I believe that they can, over time, make a great product. But they have to switch gears to do so. Anyone who wants to play in the digital camera business has to make their own sensors. It's more about the sensor than it is about who's been in business the longest. Film cameras and digital cameras have one core difference: in a film camera, you don't have to worry about ISO, Dynamic Range, or Resolution-- that's what the film manufacturer worries about. But in a digital camera, thats everything-- including the light-tight box with the lens on it. A film camera is two parts: the film and the camera. A digital camera is a complete solution, with no symbiotic relationship limiting the amount of innovation that it can gain.

A digital imaging sensor is more akin to film manufacturing than camera manufacturing. The box we all refer to as the "camera" is simply the housing for the medium, its not the medium. Arri will make it, but they are no longer guaranteed to be the market leaders they were when everything was film-centric. It is a very different playing field for them now. And its not necessarily a level one, or in their favor.

 

[Jeff Coatney]

I have to add: for all its artistic triumph, Avatar suffered from an HD acquisition of its live action. Yes, I know that's all that was available to the film maker, but it did not live up to the quality of the 2K CGI.

Yes, an HD finish will be the norm for some time. But the future holds higher resolutions. You should acquire your image at the highest resolution possible. Unlike CGI, where you can re-render your frames at 6K or 12K theoretically when the hardware allows it in the future, you can't re-render live action. Anyone not shooting 4K right now (because it is affordable and available) is squandering potential revenue in the future. We can't predict what business opportunities await us in the future.