Arri (LDS) Lens Data System Red Lens Mount

[Humberto Rivera]

Jim, I ask this question very respectfully. Now that the Canon, Nikon, and Leica Red mounts are done, isn’t time to have an Arri LDS (Lens Data System) Red mount in the wings? Especially now that the “Meizler Module” is also done. It would be great for example to use the “Cine Tape” and all the information it get directly from the lens into “Meta Data”.

I don’t know is this affects Arri legal situation with Red or not, or if there is some kind of license agreement, or whatever, I’m just talking from a User Point of View. The Arri Master Prime (LDS) are fine set of “Glass” it’s such a shame to let anything get in the way. They have a good T-stop, a fine range 12mm to 150mm, and they are sharp as tack. The lenses can be used and are used, but it would be much better to record the (LDS) data into the Epic Camera, especially with the new “Dragon Sensor” in the wings. At least think about it while in Fiji! Just asking!

Humberto Rivera

 

[Mark Pedersen]

Well, at the risk of sounding like a squeaky wheel, I'll join in that request! I've been asking for LDS support since the RedOne was released. Just ask Jim or Jarred

But bottom line, if there is any chance that can get implemented, I know a lot of people would be thrilled.

Instead of a whole new mount, could it be a mod to the existing PL ti mount to add the pins? Of course the electronics and data would have to be implemented on the camera side... But that shouldn't much of a challenge for you guys considering what you've pulled off so far!

BTW, both Master Primes and LDS Ultra Primes will work with the system. For anyone in normal production--especially anyone doing VFX or stereo work, having recorded LDS meta data would be bad ass.

Look at it this way... one less reason to choose an Alexa or god forbid a Sony F3 to get the data.... right?

M

 

[pieterstathis]

+1

I too would love to have LDS support for my LDS Ultra Primes.

IMHO, the UPs are far-and-away the best lenses for EPIC -- combining ultralight weight, razor sharpness and T1.9 speed in a wide assortment of focal lengths.

P.

 

[Jon MIchael Puntervold]

I agree that LDS is a must have feature.

...but - why did Arri and Cooke end up with to different standards, even with the pins at different places?

An upgrade to the RPZ and RPP's adding i/interface would be nice aswell.

 

[Michael Lindsay]

+1 but unfortunately not thinking it is too likely...

I think it should be a new mount as it would allow Red to cover their costs. There will be a licence fee plus some R+D and free is not going to bridge those costs considering the currently political environment..

If you really want lens data and you are on a LCS shoot there are other options half apearing. For example the new Arri WCU-4 has the lens archive built in therfore as long as you select the lens all the data is available with or without LDS contacts and inlens encoders.. if only we could save that meta data TC stamped then we could merge this with the clips in post (avid is easy in this regard.)

Who is going to do the work? Who cares enough and will purchaseing decisions be influnced? There is a long line for Leicas without an encoder insight.

regards

Michael

PS or everyone could loby Arri to offer a new mount for their LDS lenses to turn them i-interface compatible... ?

 

[Dave Blackham]

PS or everyone could loby Arri to offer a new mount for their LDS lenses to turn them i-interface compatible... ?

Is'nt this a much more open way forward ?

 

[Jeff McCoy]

+1

Arri sucks (for their lack of morals to begin with) but Zeiss made some kick ass master primes. I've been forced to lose rentals on my Epic far too many times this year due to more and more CG work on car commercials that are doing digital replacements. The CGI firms have started a trend of requesting useful lens metadata and it's taking off faster than people realize. Sure, there are other methods of capturing metadata externally and re-sync-ing in post but the truth is the client don't want to hear that. They want it easy- just embedded in the footage, and I don't blame them. I hope there can be a solution. Heck, I'd even sell my master primes and buy an all new set if Zeiss and Red got together and made babies.
Jim is God and Red is my religion. Amen. Oh and my rep, Nar rules too. And Katie at the front desk is rad. And Jason & Kelly in Hollywood. Heck I'm sure everyone there is cool.

 

[Michael Lindsay]

+1

Arri sucks (for their lack of morals to begin with) ...

Interestingly no big company has every offered me more service without a sale!!

Some of the best people in the industry (from a service, sales and manufactruing pov) have worked at Arri. Guys who went really really out of their way, and still do, to help me and others use our Red cameras within a proffesional eco system... The people I deal with at Arri respect the fact (and reasons for) I want to continue shooting Red (Red 1, Epic M, Epic X... soon to be Epic Dragon and then.....)

but Zeiss made some kick ass master primes.

Arri's part in their development is easy to underplay but it not insignificant.

and ironically in my world posts like yours are far more damaging to Epic hire than LDS. I am not alone in thinking this.

regards

Michael L

PS on a more positive note why don't you investigate http://www.angenieux.com/file/datasheets/cinema/pdf_Catalogue_2011-2012/angenieux_ads.pdf as a way of getting your clients lens data.

 

[Michael Lindsay]

...another thought would be if we could find a thirdparty who could create active new PL mounts that replace the mounts on the back of LDS lenses with pins in the correct, for Red, position and the requesite reformatting of data.. I remebr being told that LDS and Cookes i-system are very close?? Anyone with any knowledge here?

This seems at least plausable? Is it legally and practically possible... ?

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

The only thing that sucks about ARRI is their current posturing against 4K. This is all an issue with their marketing people... I'm sure they'll have a 4K camera offering of their own in the very near future and they will change their tune [again].

As for LDS, it has to be licensed and ARRI is not in a habit of licensing it to competitors. The request for LDS support on RED cameras dates way back to before the RED One even started shipping. The requests have not fallen on deaf ears, there are just more forces at work here and it may not be something that's even possible with the current state of the industry.

Humberto is correct though, FX people all want the lens data embedded these days. They'll take an XML sidecar if they have to, but may complain about it the whole way through post.

My solution... Sell the Master Primes and buy a set of Cooke S4/i's or S5/i's... You might even come out a bit ahead.


And yes, /i and LDS are very similar.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

...My solution... Sell the Master Primes and buy a set of Cooke S4/i's or S5/i's... You might even come out a bit ahead.


And yes, /i and LDS are very similar.

Too bad Cookes don't even come close to the image quality and built of the Master Primes, never mind sharpness and clarity....


But, it could be that in secret some one I know very well, is actually designing a set of PL lenses that will blow anything in the market today, and they will also have some kind of i/LDS in them...

 

[Michael Lindsay]

The only thing that sucks about ARRI is their current posturing against 4K.

What are you talking about!. They believe in 4k+.... and have 4k soloutions. just not digital solutions ;-)

As for LDS, it has to be licensed and ARRI is not in a habit of licensing it to competitors. The request for LDS support on RED cameras dates way back to before the RED One even started shipping. The requests have not fallen on deaf ears

I defintaly would like LDS but if we were to make a list of Red priorities (and as an avid Red Camera owner/user I have many) I do wonder where it would fall on that list. for example they will do more for the Industry by getting 4k projectors out there. It is why I wondered if a 3rd party could take it on?

Humberto is correct though, FX people all want the lens data embedded these days. They'll take an XML sidecar if they have to, but may complain about it the whole way through post.

Perhaps a simple meta data merging facility in Redcine is the way to go??

And yes, /i and LDS are very similar.

So do you think, tapping in to your teck head here, it would be feasbale for a small 3rd party to create /i from LDS PL mounts?

kind regards

Michael

 

[Jeff McCoy]

Interestingly no big company has every offered me more service without a sale!!

Some of the best people in the industry (from a service, sales and manufactruing pov) have worked at Arri. Guys who went really really out of their way, and still do, to help me and others use our Red cameras within a proffesional eco system... The people I deal with at Arri respect the fact (and reasons for) I want to continue shooting Red (Red 1, Epic M, Epic X... soon to be Epic Dragon and then.....)

I'd just like to clarify my previous comment about Arri- I was not referring to their service, sales, manufacturing, or even their products (the 435 was my workhorse for many years)... what I was specifically referring to, and what ruined my appreciation for them as a business, is the whole email scandal... how can you overlook this?

http://www.engadget.com/2012/01/01/red-digital-cinema-sues-competitor-arri-over-e-mail-hacking-add/

http://techcrunch.com/2011/12/30/re...cking-false-advertising-in-hd-camera-dust-up/

http://www.engadget.com/2011/09/23/former-arri-exec-pleads-guilty-to-hacking-into-rival-ceos-e-mai/

I don't think anyone could imagine how damaging this was to Red, but furthermore I will not deal with a company like that, ever again. Just my opinion. I have no doubt that Red will shake it off and continue to lead; as they have always been leaders. I'm not saying everyone or anyone needs to agree with me. I'm sorry to those of you that are easily offended by my words to say "Arri sucks" but I'm not trying to start an online argument. This is simply directed at those involved with the scandal, not the rest of the company or products; although I choose to shoot Red because I believe they make a superior product, I love the people, and I like to support products developed in the USA.

 

[Jeff McCoy]

Too bad Cookes don't even come close to the image quality and built of the Master Primes, never mind sharpness and clarity....

Ketch, I could not agree more.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

What are you talking about!. They believe in 4k+.... and have 4k soloutions. just not digital solutions ;-)

Hehe.. It's funny, their camera guys talk about 4K as if it's a waste of time and yet their film division says its necessary moving into future distribution in terms of film printers and scanners. I really like the resolution whitepaper that ARRI had not too long ago and Jarred recently posted it. I would've loved to have a copy of that at NAB last year to hand to their camera guys telling me all about the superior resolution of the Alexa Studio. Then ask them to explain the contradiction. You know that as soon as ARRI unveils a 4K+ camera, then they're going to be pushing 4K as if they're the only ones on the market doing it.

[Perhaps a simple meta data merging facility in Redcine is the way to go??]

Seems perfectly reasonable to me. And possible for third parties once RED opens up more metadata functionality in the SDK. Personally, I'm not so sure I see why the FX people want it specifically embedded. I suppose they're just minimizing the number of files to manage, but to what end...? Looks like we should be able to encode lens data via the Meizler Module, as another possible solution.

So do you think, tapping in to your teck head here, it would be feasbale for a small 3rd party to create /i from LDS PL mounts?

Technically, LDS ability is not a big deal to add. It looks to me like the /i encoding on the existing PL mount is done on the mount itself and proprietary data the camera understands is then sent from the mount to the brain. No reason RED or some enterprising third party couldn't make an LDS mount. I think the real issue here comes back to licensing and industry posturing and politics. Given the legal and competitive tensions between RED and ARRI, I'm not sure it's likely. And I think that if it were to happen, RED would make the mount themselves rather than assist with and approve a third-party solution. Sure, a third-party could do it entirely on their own, but then we get into all the issues of unapproved mounts, warranty violation and possibly other factors that aren't just coming to me at the moment.

I suppose someone could make (potential licensing / legal issues aside) a device that translates LDS data to /i data. But I don't see how something like that makes sense in this situation. It would still require its own PL mount or a modified PL mount in order to work, may as well just make a proper LDS mount.


@Ketch -- Yeah, I agree about the Cooke primes vs. the Masters. The S5's are sharper than the S4's, but not so much that it ruins the "Cooke look". I actually like them a lot, but when it comes to sharp -- which I usually like -- I always reach for the Masters, RPP's and Ultras. I wish the RPP's had /i connectivity. Several of us were surprised, and somewhat vocal about this, myself included, when Jim/ Jarred confirmed the RPP's would not have /i data back before they launched. Still they're great lenses, even though the 18 thru 35 are massive monster lenses.

 

[Humberto Rivera]

I think that the Arri/Zeizz Master Prime (LDS) are mostly a product of “Zeizz” and marketed by “Arri World Wide”. It’s complex arrangement that has unfortunate circumstances, especially when you take the Arri Corporate stance in the “Red Case” for whatever their motivations Arri doesn’t seem to show any remorse.

The choice is becoming even clearer with the up-coming 6K “Dragon Sensor” Dynamic Rage, and looking way down into the “Dark Side”; Sixteen or fifteen stops, can you imagine that; (T0.5 - T0.7 -T1 - T1.4 - T2 - T2.8 - T4 - T5.6 - T8 - T11 - T16 - T22 – T32 - T44 – T64 – T88)! But the Master Primes (LDS) remain the King of the Hill!

However misguided Arri position has been in this regard, and it has been very unfortunate, The Master Prime (LDS) continue to be the “Premier Lens” to beat, they have been slowly building up their “Focal Length” choice over the years, while maintaining their T1.3 Stop. I wonder what Peter Jackson did with his Arii/Zeizz Ultra Prime Lenses on “The Hobbit”? They edited on the “Mistika System”!

Well, here is praying that a solution can be found!

Humberto Rivera

 

[Ketch Rossi]

... @Ketch -- Yeah, I agree about the Cooke primes vs. the Masters. The S5's are sharper than the S4's, but not so much that it ruins the "Cooke look". I actually like them a lot, but when it comes to sharp -- which I usually like -- I always reach for the Masters, RPP's and Ultras. I wish the RPP's had /i connectivity. Several of us were surprised, and somewhat vocal about this, myself included, when Jim/ Jarred confirmed the RPP's would not have /i data back before they launched. Still they're great lenses, even though the 18 thru 35 are massive monster lenses.

This is exactly why I have been missing my MP's badly, and even so the Leica Cine Primes are coming, I'm not so sure I'll end up keeping them, that is how good the MP's are...

 

[Humberto Rivera]

It's Time

It's Time

Now that Sony’s New F55 has a Mount for; “Sony’s PL to FZ mount adapter lets you use almost all PL mounts on the planet. Electric contacts probably will pass through /i and LDS data. (PL mounts are 54 mm internal diameter, with a 52 mm focus depth.)” (LDS) Lens Data System; isn’t time for the Red Epic to have a similar mount? So all Hi-End Cameras can be compatible with each other?

Humberto Rivera

 

[Humberto Rivera]

Just a reminder!

Just a reminder!

I'm really having to go back a long ways; but I recall “Jarred Land” once saying, quote; “We still have plans on supporting the LDS protocol with a new mount, but it won’t be until after the Canon and Nikon mounts and firmware are complete.” The Canon, Nikon, Leica mounts are now finished! So when will we incorporate the Arri/Zeiss LDS (Lens Data System) into the new “Meizler Module”? As I recall that was before NAB 2011! Just saying!

Humberto Rivera

 

[Humberto Rivera]

Arri/Zeiss Master Primes (LDS)

Arri/Zeiss Master Primes (LDS)

I have been thinking about the “Anamorphic Lenses” verses “Spherical Lenses”! Like everyone else I got excited about Arri/Zeiss Mater Anamorphic (LDS) New Lenses Family at T1.9, the Service Vision announcement of Thirteen Lenses “Scorpiolens Anamorphic 2x”, the new (old) Hawks, especially the Angenieux Zoom Lens.

But then I got thinking, the Arri/Zeiss Master Primes did not arrive all at once in the marketplace, it took them a while for them to have Sixteen Lens, all T1.3 compared to the Anamorphic T1.9. The Master Primes with their the patented Dual Floating Elements Technology nearly eliminated breathing in the Lenses, Built-in Lens Data System (LDS) so we can transfer the data for VFX editing, virtually no breathing, breathtaking performance Even Up-Close. These lenses took time to build up to sixteen, so it will be while when we actually see something concrete from the anamorphic side! Master Primes can capture details other lenses simply cannot see, especially with the new ASA/ISO of 2,000 of the "Dragon Sensor". Who knows, years!

The Arri/Zeiss Master Prime ARE HERE NOW, they FILL the Red Epic “Image Sensor” nicely, they as a group of lenses can’t really be beat by anyone! They are in category by themselves! It would be nice if we can get the (LDS) Lenses Data System” recorded onto the “Meizler Module” to complement whatever kind of Lens controls we decide to use with the new “6K Dragon Sensor” camera into “Meta Data”.

Because of the shape of the 5K and 6K upcoming “Dragon Sensor” Image Size they fill the entire frame, TODAY! There is no waiting for a BETTER MOUSE TRAP to come in the future! These lenses are owned by many Red Camera Users, or are rented by them, either way they are often used. Well I guess enough on this REQUEST; Red as always will do what it will do! God Bless Them all!

Humberto Rivera