Arri D-21 vs. Red

[Michael Hastings]

However, if you look at a color filter and if it has a narrow or wide spectral response, I could easily see that would give trade-offs in sensitivity, noise, and performance under spiky spectral response lights. But as for precisely how these differences would manifest themselves, I'm not sure enough to comment knowledgeably.

Graeme

Interesting. Since this must also be somewhat true regarding the filters in bayer sensors, I wonder then if there would be an advantage to having different debayering algorithms depending on the type of light source - or is this already done now?

And while I think of it, will epic have any kind of program dial as is common on DSLRs or is all that still handled with loadable looks?

 

[Brennan Klensch]

not that gamma can always fix everything, but according to Jim, the new FLUT science stuff has a film gamma correction to it, so I'm interested to see now what that might look like

 

[Miguel "Macgregor" De Olaso]

Vantage/Hawk have a superb Bluray/DVD comparing film stock, D21 and Red one shot with their lenses. It´s a 20 minute video designed to show their lenses but it´s equally interesting to watch the different looks of the cameras.

It´s carefully lit and judging by the results i can tell the postproduction was done in the best possible way, extracting every detail from any of the three cameras and trying to match the look of the images.
This Bluray also proves that something went wrong on the BSC camera tests, because here red performed quite well compared to other capturing devices.

I showed the DVD to a girl that doesn´t know anything about making movies and she said they all looked the same. That´s something we can learn (average people don´t see the difference).
I could, as well as most of you, see the difference. In terms of quality, film looked great. D21 almost as good (a bit more electronic and about 1 stop less in DR) and Red very similar to the D21 but with 1 or 2 stops less detail in the highlights.

Also Red footage, being recorded at 4K, looks softer when downsampled to 1080p/PAL than the D21 going to HDCAM SR. I think this has to do with the resampling algorithm within redcine and it´s something i´ve seen over the last 2 years. Adding "sharpen" does not fix this.

 

[Pawel Achtel]

I showed the DVD to a girl that doesn´t know anything about making movies and she said they all looked the same. That´s something we can learn (average people don´t see the difference).

That's a very interesting comment, actually. In fact, I'm certain that, for all intents and purposes, we are splitting hairs here most of the time.

 

[Brennan Klensch]

is there any way to stream any of that footage (i would get the bluray but I have quite a lack of anything bluray unfortunately)

 

[DS Williams]

That's a very interesting comment, actually. In fact, I'm certain that, for all intents and purposes, we are splitting hairs here most of the time.

How interesting. I completely agree, although as cinematographers, the image is our product, represents our talent, so it's essentially our job to obsess over minutia. I love being a DP

 

[Rob Ruffo]

My thoughts... As far as owning a camera goes, I stopped playing keep up with the high end camera a long time ago. I found it far too expensive, and far too limiting.
Today's cutting edge is tomorrows old hat.
My suggestion... Be realistic with your camera needs. If you need to own a camera, then purchase one your client base will support. For example... The majority of the stuff I shoot is local TV commercials with budgets under $5K. It would be foolish for me to invest in a $170K camera when my client base would not support it. So I own a few lesser cameras that cover the needs of my client base at that level. When I do regional work with a higher budget needing a higher level of quality, I simply rent the appropriate camera for the job.
Filmmaking is really no different than shooting commercials.
You still have a client base, even if it is just you!
Sorry that I'm not debating the Red Vs Arri camera thing here, but these camera vs camera posts are a bit pointless, especially if you can't afford one.
If you like the look of the D-21, then do what other filmmakers do when they want to shoot on it, rent it if your budget will support it.

All the Best!

It always irritates me when people make posts like these on tech forums.

Others of similar ilk include "If your story is great, the tech doesn't matter." and the all-time infuriating classic "These two cameras are apples and oranges." What utility can comments like these have?

We're here to be better informed about tech decisions we do need to make - we can't just give pothead answers to questiosn like "what camera should I rent for this job", and to better defend these decisions to clients, financing, etc. What do you know about how much anyone here can afford?

Of course, it's not just about the tech, it's about the art - but to do godo art you need to pick tools carefully and know how to maximize their strengths. We're talking about electronic filmmaking here, not hippy pottery-making. So please, I suggest an auto-delete filter on this forum for any post saying "Stop worrying about your camera and go out and shoot something." and so on.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Vantage/Hawk have a superb Bluray/DVD comparing film stock, D21 and Red one shot with their lenses. It´s a 20 minute video designed to show their lenses but it´s equally interesting to watch the different looks of the cameras.

It´s carefully lit and judging by the results i can tell the postproduction was done in the best possible way, extracting every detail from any of the three cameras and trying to match the look of the images.
This Bluray also proves that something went wrong on the BSC camera tests, because here red performed quite well compared to other capturing devices.

I showed the DVD to a girl that doesn´t know anything about making movies and she said they all looked the same. That´s something we can learn (average people don´t see the difference).
I could, as well as most of you, see the difference. In terms of quality, film looked great. D21 almost as good (a bit more electronic and about 1 stop less in DR) and Red very similar to the D21 but with 1 or 2 stops less detail in the highlights.

Also Red footage, being recorded at 4K, looks softer when downsampled to 1080p/PAL than the D21 going to HDCAM SR. I think this has to do with the resampling algorithm within redcine and it´s something i´ve seen over the last 2 years. Adding "sharpen" does not fix this.

Yes be we do see the extra time it takes to light and frame to avoid clipped highlights, and they would notice extremely clipped highlights or crushed blacks. Besides, we work for the most discerning members in the audience, a single random person means nothing.

 

[David W. Jones]

It always irritates me when people make posts like these on tech forums.

Others of similar ilk include "If your story is great, the tech doesn't matter." and the all-time infuriating classic "These two cameras are apples and oranges." What utility can comments like these have?

We're here to be better informed about tech decisions we do need to make - we can't just give pothead answers to questiosn like "what camera should I rent for this job", and to better defend these decisions to clients, financing, etc. What do you know about how much anyone here can afford?

Of course, it's not just about the tech, it's about the art - but to do godo art you need to pick tools carefully and know how to maximize their strengths. We're talking about electronic filmmaking here, not hippy pottery-making. So please, I suggest an auto-delete filter on this forum for any post saying "Stop worrying about your camera and go out and shoot something." and so on.

Great couple of first posts Rob, first you slam Erik, and ask how Red would find out if you installed a mount that would void your warranty, And then bomb me.

If you don't like my response, add me to your ignore list!

How would I know what anyone can afford here? When they post it.

ONly thing is, retail on that sucker is 170k..so...that's pretty much out.

Here are my reasons for posting what you would consider hogwash.
Because I have seen firsthand this new crop of talented passionate filmmakers, that don't have a clue when it comes to running a business.
Business? Film making is about art not business... Bull! Film making is a job.
And purchasing a camera is a business decision. To base your camera purchase solely on Tech specs would be foolish.
But that's just my opinion.

All the Best!

 

[Brennan Klensch]

i'm a bit confused by that last little bit David. I'm trying to understand if you agree or disagree with me. I will say however that I would disagree that we should break to the idea that filmmaking is more business than art, which in studio houses, that may be the case. Heck, even freelance work, like some of the stuff on your site, may be based on that idea and be entirely true. However, when it comes to indie filmmaking, the game changes. Most of your business is funding and marketing at that point, not neccesarily in regards to your tech. If I could afford to buy one of the reds and rent out a D-21, i would do that and integrate them like david mullins had mentioned that "Supernatural" does

 

[James Brundige]

And Michael is also correct that the ARRI camera sends out an uncompressed signal. You can add compression if you want, as an HDCAM-SR deck would do (though mild). And some of the data recorders that record the RAW signal can add compression.

I beg to differ. All of my work is for broadcast, and I am disappointed that HDCAM has become the standard. Sony was first out of the gate, and used their ownership of the analog broadcast chain to establish HDCAM. But it is an old codec. To my eye, Pro Res looks visibly better, at a much lower data rate. That's progress, and to enshrine HDCAM is not.

I suspect tape based flows will be replaced by data flows, and there's the chance to establish a better HD, not tied to Sony's $80K decks, but only to your computer and a high speed internet for distribution.

That said (and back on topic) Arri has hit the serial television market just right, with a simple 1080 workflow that everybody understands. Hopefully Red's new tools will make getting to 1080 quicker and better. I'm happy to use the Red, but I have a much longer turn around - months instead of weeks.

 

[David W. Jones]

i'm a bit confused by that last little bit David. I'm trying to understand if you agree or disagree with me. I will say however that I would disagree that we should break to the idea that filmmaking is more business than art, which in studio houses, that may be the case. Heck, even freelance work, like some of the stuff on your site, may be based on that idea and be entirely true. However, when it comes to indie filmmaking, the game changes. Most of your business is funding and marketing at that point, not neccesarily in regards to your tech. If I could afford to buy one of the reds and rent out a D-21, i would do that and integrate them like david mullins had mentioned that "Supernatural" does

Sorry for the confusion Brennan, and sorry for lashing out.
Maybe I should have said something like filmmaking was the business of making art. Although I'm sure that you would agree that many films you have seen were far from being art in your eyes. And for the record, that stuff on my site is way far from being art. Time to confess... Hi my name's Dave and I'm a commercial whore. It's amazing what some people will do to support their family isn't it. As far as indie filmmaking goes, yes it's rough out there. I tried to raise $700K for a low budget feature and had to can the project. I have a neighbor who is a very well known actor with a list of credits that everyone on this board would know, and he can't get his film made. At any rate I guess the point I was trying to make was that there are young filmmakers that spend every last dollar on the latest wizbang camera because of peer pressure on the internet, that then become disillusioned when their film has less than professional results from this great camera.
When in fact they could have used just about any camera out there to practice learning the craft of filmmaking.

 

[M Most]

I beg to differ. All of my work is for broadcast, and I am disappointed that HDCAM has become the standard. Sony was first out of the gate, and used their ownership of the analog broadcast chain to establish HDCAM. But it is an old codec. To my eye, Pro Res looks visibly better, at a much lower data rate. That's progress, and to enshrine HDCAM is not.

The post said "HDCam SR", not HDCam. They are two very, very different things. Nobody is "enshrining" HDCam. In fact, nobody even mentioned it.

 

[Dave Blackham]

I beg to differ. All of my work is for broadcast, and I am disappointed that HDCAM has become the standard. Sony was first out of the gate, and used their ownership of the analog broadcast chain to establish HDCAM. But it is an old codec. To my eye, Pro Res looks visibly better, at a much lower data rate. That's progress, and to enshrine HDCAM is not.

Not in the UK it isnt........

 

[Brennan Klensch]

Sorry for the confusion Brennan, and sorry for lashing out.
Maybe I should have said something like filmmaking was the business of making art. Although I'm sure that you would agree that many films you have seen were far from being art in your eyes. And for the record, that stuff on my site is way far from being art. Time to confess... Hi my name's Dave and I'm a commercial whore. It's amazing what some people will do to support their family isn't it. As far as indie filmmaking goes, yes it's rough out there. I tried to raise $700K for a low budget feature and had to can the project. I have a neighbor who is a very well known actor with a list of credits that everyone on this board would know, and he can't get his film made. At any rate I guess the point I was trying to make was that there are young filmmakers that spend every last dollar on the latest wizbang camera because of peer pressure on the internet, that then become disillusioned when their film has less than professional results from this great camera.
When in fact they could have used just about any camera out there to practice learning the craft of filmmaking.

cool, thanks for the clarification. I definitel;y understand doing what you can to support your family and aside from clearing things up, your post at least made me laugh. sorry to hear about your movie. Right now I'm making probably the most micro budget movie ever. Well not ever, but I literally don't want to raise more than 25-30k, nd that seems impossible itself, so I understand what your saying

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Is Filmmaking a higher calling? Sounds like a fun chat for "off-topic".
What I will say once again is that artful lighting, blocking, lens selection, framing, angles, etc are all capable of enhancing one's perception of the quality of a particular camera system.

In terms of the "edgy" digital look vs the smooth and creamy look of film as perceived in final presentation there are plenty of opportunities in post-production to de-tune an overly crispy image or (within reason) punch up a flatter one.

If you can agree to the stipulations above, then let's talk about inherent characteristics of the RedOne and Arri D-21.

Due to the high nominal resolution of the RedOne and Graeme's deep hatred for aliasing I would argue that the RedOne's character is quite smooth and creamy - in fact it can even look soft if not handled well in post. I have always been a fan of this approach as it gives me the option to "tune it up" to suit the creative intent with very little risk of "ringing" or that over sharpened look. BTW that particular "sharpy" look is my biggest complaint about the F900 series Sony cams.

I'll start my D-21 comparison by noting that when working from the ArriRAW files the real world resolution of the images is much closer to the RedOne than the nominal resolution specs might suggest and if you are doing a 2K or 1080 DI I would argue its a non-issue. In any case, as I have gleaned from conversations with top colorists and seen in DI theater settings, the color rendition of the D-21 is spectacular.

FWIW the Genesis and F35 rigs currently produce the best "out of the box" images I have seen in D-cinema cameras with better sensitivity and latitude than the RedOne or the D-21. It is really the next generation of cameras from RED and Arri that, based on samples and trade show demos, look ready to raise the bar.

In their current shipping iterations, it is easy to say the RedOne is a far greater value for the price than the D-21 if owning a camera is your goal. If renting, I would choose the RedOne for most projects but if a film out was certain and human faces/skin were key, I might go D-21. YMMV.

Cheers - #19

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

If renting, I would choose the RedOne for most projects but if a film out was certain and human faces/skin were key, I might go D-21. YMMV.

Cheers - #19

Blair ... I have to ask you ... have you personally shot D21 and put ARRI RAW files through post?

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Blair ... I have to ask you ... have you personally shot D21 and put ARRI RAW files through post?

I have not had the opportunity to DP a D-21 shoot. I am basing my comments on extensive discussions with two well known colorists who both understand how to get excellent results from r3ds and have graded D-21 material for film out. I have sat in for some grading sessions in properly calibrated DI theaters with footage from both cameras and seen A/B comparisons of the graded and ungraded images. The Arri footy with the LogC (100 I believe) as the starting point and the Red with a custom built version of the RedSpace curve (more discrete points than the pre-built version and a softer shoulder) as the starting point.

From what I have seen both cameras are quite capable of making excellent images by any measure but both have inherent limitations in terms of sensitivity and DR. As you might imagine I have about 50 times more experience critically looking at Red footy than D-21 footy so my impressions are likely skewed by that.

That said, it sure seemed easier to get nice skin tones from the D-21 footy than the Red footy in the film out test. With the new color science and technicians at Tech/FotoKem/etc getting more savvy about Red material as they work with more of it this may evolve quite a bit.

Note that in my earlier post I made the stipulation that only when a film out was "certain" would I even consider going D-21. All other things being equal I think the path to a high fidelity DCP is easier with Red and to film out with D-21. If the primary deliverable is 1080P HDTV and I have a good colorist involved then I would prefer Red, of course that may be heavily biased by my evolved skill set working with the Red system from set to post.

Cheers - #19

 

[James Brundige]

The post said "HDCam SR", not HDCam. They are two very, very different things. Nobody is "enshrining" HDCam. In fact, nobody even mentioned it.

I was referring to HDCAM SR in my post, which I know has a better color space, but is still compressed. And it's yesterday's workflow. I fedex a tape to the network; they put it on a sat feed to the locals, who tape it for broadcast. I should just post a file they can all access, in a better codec.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

I was referring to HDCAM SR in my post, which I know has a better color space, but is still compressed. And it's yesterday's workflow. I fedex a tape to the network; they put it on a sat feed to the locals, who tape it for broadcast. I should just post a file they can all access, in a better codec.

FWIW the level of compression in an SR master is so light compared to the MPEG-2 crunching the distributor is going to do I'm not sure it matters much. That said, a file based delivery option is overdue. My assumption is that possession of physical media in the form of an SR tape is considered a solid job security move by those who create deliverable specs. I would wager that over the next few years the nets will become more sanguine about multiple copies of their assets living on servers in an SRish codec as an alternative to the security blanket of a tape they can hold in their hand, but I'm not holding my breath...

Cheers - #19