ARRI ALEXA in-camera recording using AVID’s DNxHD MXF file format

[Tony Lorentzen]

I totally get the argument of shooting 4K or 5K over 1080p. What I don't get is why we can't choose for ourselves. If RED made this module EVERYONE would buy it. Seriously. Call it whatever you want - a dailies module, an offline module. As long as it records something that is just a high quality as what the Alexa does then that would be the missing link to allow our Epics to "eat" into some of that massive market the Alexa has taken in the last year or so. The solution is not to stick some other box on the back of the Epic - the solution has to be an integrated one that "just works". Obviously - some kind of dual recording system would be optimal so we can go back to the R3Ds if need be.

 

[Thor Melsted]

There's already a 3rd Party option for this, and I'm pretty sure it costs a hell of a lot less than whatever ARRI will charge for their upgrade:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...PIX-240-ProRes-DNxHD-Video-Recorder-with-EPIC

 

[Manuel Wenger]

Tony, you nailed it !

 

[Craig Weeding]

Hi Oliver

Have you checked out the Sound Devices Pix240 and AJA Ki PRO mini?

Both can provide off line material to feed hungry editors. The size weight and power requirements are low. An Epic or scarlet is still much lighter and smaller then an Alexa with much better Resolution and workflow, if quality is the goal not just quick video.

if you do not mind me asking what the issue with using one of these two solutions?

Red is understandably focussed on RED Code and making it the best it can be. Why not let some of these other good vendors provide the solution you need.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

again. ALL third party solution cant handle slow motion shots.
and recording 5 minutes with 300fps and then playing it back on camera to record it to a third party tool is not an option too.
it would take ages and stop the show if you do that with 10 slow motion clips.

right now the epic is perfect as it is for 3D, size, connectors etc.
but for 2D work, you are in the xmas tree world again. which can and will change through modules.
and what we do here is suggest modules our clients are asking us for.

red should certify the AP electra and give them the ability to add a 2nd monitor port, if they dont want to handle it by themselves.
the price can go up, i have no problem with that. and inbetween one slim module for editing files where you through in
another ssd card.
this way you can stay small and have the perfect cinestyle set up.
my 2 pesos.
slim, cablefree, team shooting oriented set-up.
thats alexa main plus.
i am not talking about feature films, there you take challenges to get the best images.
but on TV films and commercials time and efficiency inside the camera department is a key factor.
alexa does give this to the producers. with their plus module, the conectors, prores shooting, avoiding xmas tree set ups as much as possible,
let us give it to them too, but with raw online and dnxhd oflline files (offline module) and a cinestyle module (like APs electra but with a 2nd LCD port).
red should not only handle the 100 mio dollar 3D movies. with these two little modules they would take over 80% of the Alexa market in 1 month. that would be nice having 4k TVs in mind (there is 4k prores and dnxhd btw)

 

[Oliver Koeppel]

What I really like about an "offline module" is the opportunity to have both streams, R3D AND ProRes, DNxHD, whatever...
Main advantage - I have the choice. And so does the postproduction have.
Why Red-made and not external? One main advantage of epic is it´s size and modularity. I would like to have it connected directly to the epicbrain - cableless - hard- and software implemented.
Just a no brainer.
Stick card in, choose codec, hit record button.

 

[Erich Ocean]

I am so happy that the REDs shoot 444 Raw, that is what Digital Cinema is abou,t 422 is just Video, Once you go 444 Raw there is not going back.

REDCODE records compressed 422 RAW (green has twice the samples as red and blue). This is true for all Bayer sensors that record the raw sensor data.

 

[Gary Stone]

Since when Avid is considered prosumer?

I'm not talking about AVID. I'm saying that if RED doesn't make a "Proxy Module" that outputs ProRes it would be consistent with their recent decisions to be "Professional" grade only. With that in mind, I don't see RED outputting anything less than Redcode RAW.

 

[Oliver Koeppel]

REDCODE records compressed 422 RAW (green has twice the samples as red and blue). This is true for all Bayer sensors that record the raw sensor data.

Sorry Erich, that´s not true. You´re right, about the bayer pattern "green has twice the samples as red and blue", but that doesn´t mean it´s 422.
444, 422 or 420 means less resolution for chroma information than for luma information in encoding images.
After debayring a cmos signal the debayered/demosaic true image is RGB.
Hope it´s not lost in translation...

 

[Max M.]

I totally get the argument of shooting 4K or 5K over 1080p. What I don't get is why we can't choose for ourselves. If RED made this module EVERYONE would buy it. Seriously. Call it whatever you want - a dailies module, an offline module. As long as it records something that is just a high quality as what the Alexa does then that would be the missing link to allow our Epics to "eat" into some of that massive market the Alexa has taken in the last year or so. The solution is not to stick some other box on the back of the Epic - the solution has to be an integrated one that "just works". Obviously - some kind of dual recording system would be optimal so we can go back to the R3Ds if need be.

I also posted this somewhere else. Its really the missing link of the red system, even more now that scarlet and epic share the same design, im sure this module would be on even bigger backorder than the evf and canon mounts together
3rd party solutions are not the solution, a module is and will make the camera suddenly a competitor with the alexa,F3, c300, af100, 7D.

Red gave us the possibility to shoot super high quality in a dslr size package what is great! Now give us the option for fast workflow if needed and i never have to shoot anything else anymore.

Simple example: i have to rent a f3 for a upcoming gig, simple interview, but producers doesnt want r3d 5k files and transcoding, he just wants 1080 422... So me epic stays at home, while with this module he would be fine with using the epic...

 

[Francesco Bonomo]

I'm not talking about AVID. I'm saying that if RED doesn't make a "Proxy Module" that outputs ProRes it would be consistent with their recent decisions to be "Professional" grade only. With that in mind, I don't see RED outputting anything less than Redcode RAW.

Gary, I get what you're saying, but if Red (the company) believes that 4K RAW is the only way to go, that's fine, it's their choice. You wouldn't believe how many high-budget commercials and TV series are shot on the Alexa in ProRes, and a lot of them not even at 4444. Simply put, there are instances even in the professional world where 4K RAW is not needed for a number of reason. What Oliver and others are asking for is the possibility to choose, because sometimes that's exactly what some productions require.

 

[Ivan Cortazar]

I think that by only recording raw in the hope that people will only edit in RAW is very naive. Becuase there are 3rd party solutions, and at the end it is making things more complicated. I know RAW is the best, but even if JIM himself wants everyone to just use RAW, that will never happend and instead, we as costumers have to spend so much time rendering, transcoding because many clients just don't care about the RAW. You might say, well then just use another camera. But that's not the point. In this case, for just this, I think ARRI is playing smarter than RED.

As of today, unfortunately the majority of the people I have worked with don't want to deal with the RAW. I know it's crazy, because raw is amazing but they just want a very good looking image Prores 4444, and go from there. So my reality is that I end up spending so much time transcoding so just people can work with what I shot for them.

I myself don't have any problem with Red workflow. Actually I have edited all my projects on the Red proxies and conform in raw in apple color. And I think it is great (well, up until Apple stop giving a shit about us) It's so simple that surprises me how most people think it's complicated. But what I do or what I want doesn't mean anything, when it's clear to me that most of people just want a decent looking flat ready to grade Pro REs. It is unfortunate but it is a reallity in the world I live in.

And I know the next advise would be just get a Redrocket. It is amaizing!. But I don't find that a valid solution, to record and then espend ours, or even minutes rendering footage. If there is only one thing I am disappointed at RED is what I think it is a way overpriced card. In general you don't tax food or 1st necessity products. Well I see the rocket or a possible proxy module like first necessity. It helps us working with the unique system the RED is. There is no other camera like it, and we've been battling with and for it since long time ago. Trying to teach the workflow to our customers... so I find difficult to swallow the price of the rocket. But anyway, I don't want to bitch about it. It is just my thought but definitively, no matter what a proxy Prores module would be a very nice thing to have specially if priced correctly.

 

[Justin Molush]

My main concern with recording in another codec would be framerates.... While Scarlet doesn't shoot over 60p in a resolution that I would use (I would never shoot 1k), if there was a way to create a 4:4:4 proxy of the 2k/120p files from a RED One that would help me in the field greatly. Does ProRes or DNxHD support 120fps? In the documentation it says prores does not, so thats dissapointing...

 

[Adrian Jebef]

Sorry Erich, that´s not true. You´re right, about the bayer pattern "green has twice the samples as red and blue", but that doesn´t mean it´s 422.
444, 422 or 420 means less resolution for chroma information than for luma information in encoding images.
After debayring a cmos signal the debayered/demosaic true image is RGB.
Hope it´s not lost in translation...

Ooops. But you've got it slightly mixed up. It's a constant misconception that the Red1 or Epic or Scarlet are 4:4:4 cameras. They are not. You are correct that the Red's R3D files get converted to RGB values but these values are derived from half as many Red and Blue samples than Green. Hence 4:2:2 Most other professional digital cinema camera manufactures rely on 3 separate RGB sensors or 3x the amount of intended resolution to derive true 4:4:4 color images. RED's cameras compromise on color fidelity in order to achieve a higher resolution.

 

[Richard Tran]

Adrian, I think you got it all wrong.

 

[Dave Blackham]

Ooops. But you've got it slightly mixed up. It's a constant misconception that the Red1 or Epic or Scarlet are 4:4:4 cameras. They are not. You are correct that the Red's R3D files get converted to RGB values but these values are derived from half as many Red and Blue samples than Green. Hence 4:2:2 Most other professional digital cinema camera manufactures rely on 3 separate RGB sensors or 3x the amount of intended resolution to derive true 4:4:4 color images. RED's cameras compromise on color fidelity in order to achieve a higher resolution.

Adrian, I dont like to critisise but thats completely inaccurate.

 

[Stuart English]

Ooops. But you've got it slightly mixed up. It's a constant misconception that the Red1 or Epic or Scarlet are 4:4:4 cameras. They are not. You are correct that the Red's R3D files get converted to RGB values but these values are derived from half as many Red and Blue samples than Green. Hence 4:2:2 Most other professional digital cinema camera manufactures rely on 3 separate RGB sensors or 3x the amount of intended resolution to derive true 4:4:4 color images. RED's cameras compromise on color fidelity in order to achieve a higher resolution.

An engineering manager I used to work with was often heard to say "would you like me to tell you the truth, or treat you like a customer?" What he meant by that was people (a freshly minted product manager comes to mind) often get engineering concepts so badly mangled in their mind that it would take way too much time to overcome the pre-conceptions, and so instead he'd just offer a succinct response. Such as :

That's total rubbish.

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

An engineering manager I used to work with was often heard to say "would you like me to tell you the truth, or treat you like a customer?" What he meant by that was people (a freshly minted product manager comes to mind) often get engineering concepts so badly mangled in their mind that it would take way too much time to overcome the pre-conceptions, and so instead he'd just offer a succinct response. Such as :

That's total rubbish.

Stuart,

That is just plain ... wonderful!

Such a smile you have brought to my evening!



Edit - and check your PM's - left a note a few days ago

 

[Adrian Jebef]

You guys are goofballs.

We'll agree on this: The EPIC is a gorgeous Black & White 4K camera. They should have shot "The Artist" with it.

 

[Uli Plank]

BS. Following that logic, the Alexa is a great color camera – in SD resolution.

Folks, if you need ProRes or DNxHD, why not get a Sound Devices PIX 240 and hang it as it as a counterweight behind your Epic or Scarlet over your shoulder? It will still be cheaper, lighter and draw less power than an Alexa and you get what you are asking for plus excellent audio.

I agree, a module from RED would look nicer, but it's not going to happen. I suppose even RED couldn't make that cheaper than what is already available (Samurai etc.), so why should they develop such a thing?

BTW, neither ProRes nor DNxHD is doing 120 fps.