Arri Alexa and Mysterium-X...

[Tom Lowe]

I almost fell out of my chair laughing when I read this gem from Arri:

"Combining our digital imaging technology directly with ProRes makes the ALEXA camera the highest quality digital camera system available..."

:smilielol5::smilielol5::smilielol5:

Who is writing this stuff? Apparently they have never beheld 5K+ RAW images in all their glory. I agree with Mark that once people really get a first-hand look at large-senor 5K+ RAW projected at 4K RGB, they will toss 1080p out the window like a soggy Burger King wrapper.....

I will come to Bravin's defense, though. First of all, I don't think he was involved in the development and specs of Alexa, was he? Second, I give him credit for having the guts to show up here on Reduser, which is Jim's turf. Bravin takes a lot of barbs here, but tries to have fun and roll with the punches, despite it all. I for one am always glad to see major industry players posting here and interacting with us.

 

[CJ Roy]

I will come to Bravin's defense, though. First of all, I don't think he was involved in the development and specs of Alexa, was he? Second, I give him credit for having the guts to show up here on Reduser, which is Jim's turf. Bravin takes a lot of barbs here, but tries to have fun and roll with the punches, despite it all. I for one am always glad to see major industry players posting here and interacting with us.

Arri's taking a que from Red's more personal relationship with its base. It would be nice if a lot more companies would follow it as well.

Competition is a good thing. It's a great time to be a filmmaker.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

ARRI: "Provides super sharp, alias-free images" - is the one I want to see. Bring on the zone plates! We all know what happened to the Sony F35 on the zone plate.

Graeme

 

[Chuck Z]

No one is complaining about Arri's official marketing...

Jim

You're not, but many of REDUSER's constituents are.

 

[Tom Lowe]

ARRI: "Provides super sharp, alias-free images" - is the one I want to see. Bring on the zone plates! We all know what happened to the Sony F35 on the zone plate.

Graeme

Yeah, let's see those Alexa zone plates at 4K also. :biggrin:

 

[Tonaci Tran]

EPIC's form factor is going to empower and change the way many Cinematographers (and crews) shoot.

I love seeing how tiny Epic looks on the arri gear head pic Jarred posted in the other thread. This is such a huge advantage for the modular DSMC systems. The arri camera is too big. I love my Red One, but because of it's size, I don't take it with me everywhere I go. It's a whole different ballgame though with Epic/Scarlet. I imagine having the cameras with me 24-7.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

To me, this is becoming a pissing contest that seems a bit odd, as very few people here have had the opportunity to shoot on Epic and Alexa. I have to admit, I don't quite get it. Jim and the folks over at RED, as well as Michael from Arri have a perspective on this as they have shot 5K, they know what they are looking at, and who knows, maybe they have seen Alexa footage. But most of us, don't have the tests and the experience with either of these cameras to make judgements in my honest opinion. Specs are one thing, seeing is believing.

I know I sound like I'm riding the fence on this, and honestly I didn't even want to post, but it just strikes me as being strange that there are so many strong opinions with what I perceive to be very little testing and basis to go on from the general community. Am I off base here?

Marketing will always be there. It will get ugly sometimes. But testing and shooting projects is the perfect antithesis to marketing.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Who is writing this stuff? Apparently they have never beheld 5K+ RAW images in all their glory.

None of us outside of Red have seen +5K RAW digital motion picture photography in all their glory (though I guess we're about to see it soon)... but it's not unreasonable for a marketing department to ignore a competitor's future product, even if it's the near future. When they make advertising claims, they are referring to their immediate competition, the M-X Red, the F35, etc. When the 5K Epic hits the stores, then they can claim to have the best digital cinema camera on the market.

Does it matter? Does anyone here take any manufacturer's claim as to being the best as the literal truth without the need for independent verification?

ARRI's is making a bet that many producers, directors, and studios don't place resolution at the top of their priority list. For better or worse, they have some evidence to back that up, such as a decade's worth of 2K digital intermediates and HD-shot features, some of which are the highest-grossing movies of all time. The issue isn't whether that's a good thing, just whether it's a marketable thing. +4K feature filmmaking may be the future, but the issue is whether it is the immediate future, before the next generation of ARRI cameras have to come out, which may well be +4K.

For the next few years, it may just be a judgement call as a renter which package to go for -- for a landscape movie, go for resolution over everything else, for an urban night movie, go for sensitivity over everything else, for the buyer, go for value-for-money over everything else. Different projects have different priorities.

I'm looking forward to all of these cameras. I'm doing a pilot right now on the M-X Red, partly because we have a lot of night scenes and car scenes, so I need a fast and small camera. But I didn't count on the insistence of the director to shoot as much as possible on a 20:1 zoom. I took out the front car seat in a sedan to fit the Red One in there for POV shots from that seat, with the need to swing in a 180 degree arc. But I couldn't fit a 20:1 zoom into the camera in that small space, especially not my 24-290mm Optimo. So I had to switch to the EX3 with a 2/3" ENG zoom. So it wasn't the size of the camera body that was the problem, it was the size of long 35mm cine zooms.

If I had the 2/3" Scarlet, it would have been much better -- and a better match to my Red footage.

 

[Emanuel A.]

I love seeing how tiny Epic looks on the arri gear head pic Jarred posted in the other thread. This is such a huge advantage for the modular DSMC systems. The arri camera is too big. I love my Red One, but because of it's size, I don't take it with me everywhere I go. It's a whole different ballgame though with Epic/Scarlet. I imagine having the cameras with me 24-7.

That's where the lighter Scarlet weights or it is better to say, it enlights ;-) The heavier and larger a device is -- like Epic, the harder it will be.

 

[Gino Papineau]

No one is complaining about Arri's official marketing...

You're right, probably because people do not have access to the leaders of Arri on a forum!

At RED we do have access, then it is a pleasure for most people and abuse of few others.

Thanks I appreciate that direct relationship

 

[Tom Lowe]

None of us outside of Red have seen +5K RAW digital motion picture photography in all their glory (though I guess we're about to see it soon)...

Sure we have. I shoot 5.6K RAW almost every day on my FF35 Canon 5D Mark II. Trust me when I tell you.. the image quality is absolutely off the charts. Game changing. Once we get cinema cameras that shoot high fps at 5K and then 6K FF35 RAW, it's gonna melt eyeballs and change the way everyone views digital cinema.

To me, this has been clear as daylight from the first moment I glimpsed the true quality of the motion image sequences I was acquiring at FF35 RAW 5.6K with high-end, L-series glass. Even to this day, my jaw hits the floor almost every time I look at 5.6K RAW images 1:1 pixel in After Effects.

 

[BradWright]

ARRI: "Provides super sharp, alias-free images" - is the one I want to see. Bring on the zone plates! We all know what happened to the Sony F35 on the zone plate.

Graeme

In addition, ProRes adds a lot of noise and artifacts to the image. The ARRI-RAW workflow will be an interesting comparison. I'd rather have the extra color space in the bayer pattern for green or blue screen shots. 5K Epic Raw is going to make the 3.5K ARRI images look blocky when trying to pull a key.

ARRI could be stronger is in color accuracy under all lighting conditions, as the test seems to allude to. That's been my on going complaint with Red Cine X.

 

[Stephen Williams]

Sure we have. I shoot 5.6K RAW almost every day on my FF35 Canon 5D Mark II. Trust me when I tell you.. the image quality is absolutely off the charts. Game changing. Once we get cinema cameras that shoot high fps at 5K and then 6K FF35 RAW, it's gonna melt eyeballs and change the way everyone views digital cinema.

To me, this has been clear as daylight from the first moment I glimpsed the true quality of the motion image sequences I was acquiring at FF35 RAW 5.6K with high-end, L-series glass. Even to this day, my jaw hits the floor almost every time I look at 5.6K RAW images 1:1 pixel in After Effects.

Trust me, the RAW pictures I have taken on set witha a DSLR over the last couple of years looked better than the 4K from RED. We won't know how good Epic will look until it's a usable product.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Trust me, the RAW pictures I have taken on set witha a DSLR over the last couple of years looked better than the 4K from RED. We won't know how good Epic will look until it's a usable product.

Granted, but have you shot on MX? Have you shot on a next-gen Red camera with 5.1K oversized sensor, or even 6K FF35? These things are coming, Stephen.

 

[Peter Moretti]

Well Arri must think 1080p is future proof if you are rolling out your next-gen camera at 3.5K RAW, which is essentially a 1080p/2K finish camera. Plus you are boasting about 1080p ProRes. Surely you do not think 3.5K RAW makes a clean 4K RGB finish? To me, either you choose 4K RGB as "future proof" or you choose 1080p. Which is it? I don't think you can really split the pie and say "3K" is the future. Or "2.6K." To me, it's gotta be 1080p or 4K at this point. Or 3D. Or 4K 3D.

1080 is a dying breed right now. Once people get a look at 5K RAW downsampled and projected at 4K, it's a game changer. Nevermind 6K full-frame downsampled to 4K RGB.... once people see that, it's game over.

Most of us here believe that 4K is the future. Why do you think AMC and Cinemark theaters are installing thousands of 4K projectors?



As soon as Epic 5.1K RAW hits the streets? :sifone:

Come on Tom,

People here have been saying that Scarlet 3K can uprez to 4K okay. Also, 4K may be the future but 1080 and 2K is the here and now, so having the option of 1080 4:2:2 for offline or 4:4:4:4 for offline/online is very nice to have today.

Also, Alexa is upgradeable, so who knows what Arri will offer down the road.

 

[Stephen Williams]

Granted, but have you shot on MX? Have you shot on a next-gen Red camera with 5.1K oversized sensor, or even 6K FF35? These things are coming, Stephen.

Tom,

If you want to compare the next generation of sensors from RED, you should compare them to the next generation from Canon / Nikon, not existing cameras that are 1 year old or more.

Stephen

 

[Tom Lowe]

Come on Tom,

People here have been saying that Scarlet 3K can uprez to 4K okay.

And they are dead wrong.

Also, Alexa is upgradeable, so who knows what Arri will offer down the road.

I didn't know that. The sensor? If so, we can probably thank Jim for that! :sifone:

 

[Scott Crawley]

Tom,

If you want to compare the next generation of sensors from RED, you should compare them to the next generation from Canon / Nikon, not existing cameras that are 1 year old or more.

Stephen

I don't think you are quite hearing what Tom Is saying. His anticipation is essentially platform agnostic I think. He is talking about the quality of moving 6k compared to 1080, and is basing his observations upon time lapse he shot with a Canon sensor. I think he only refers to Epic by name because there are few 6k motion cameras currently announced. Have I got you right, Tom?

 

[Stephen Matthews]

I find it funny how red is now the camera to beat and compare yourself too, and Alexa is going to be used on commercials and music video's... strange (but good) times.

 

[Cal Brunker]

Having those pro rez files right out of the camera is awesome for fast turn around projects, awesome for dailies, offlines etc. Don't get me wrong I love the RAW stuff, but having a 1080p quicktime format that plays so nicely with everything else is amazing. There are a lot of times I'd love to have had that one!

I guess I should shutup and buy a RedRocket already and get my prorez back uber fast from 4k full debayers with a one light grade on them.

Can't wait for my Epic!

Cal