Arri Alexa and Mysterium-X...

[Michael Bravin]

Michael... nice to have you clear up the details surrounding Alexa. Is WB baked into Arriraw?

Jim

Boy am I ever sorry for being away so long, I got VERY busy and I had a tough personal situation to deal with, not meaning to appear uninterested in answering this question.

ARRIRAW on D21. We designed the camera to closely emulate film based use and workflow. When you choose a film stock and lighting with film, the stock is tungsten or daylight and lighting is tungsten or daylight, or mix. With the D21 you choose the White Balance in the camera and that chosen WB IS carried with the ARRIRAW data into post. We do not use the metadata technique that RED does, to choose WB in post. You can accomplish an adjustment of WB with several tools including the free utility called ARC (Arri Raw Converter) available on our website and Glue Tools also allows for color balance "readjustment" Many partners offer tools to de Bayer and adjust image parameters. The ISO is actually a scene setting. If the scene is lit and the camera set to ISO 200, one should apply a 200 ISO LUT. Applying a different LUT or other manual settings will just effect the display of the image but not the captured image information.

ARRIRAW on ALEXA. We deliver cameras in June,we are still optimizing the expanded performance because of the ALEV III sensor regarding the spec for ARRIRAW on ALEXA. We will provide more information on arridigital.com prior to implementation of ARRIRAW on ALEXA. With our AIT (Arri Imaging Technology) we balance the dye's used in the color filter array on the bayer mask, and the color processing/debayer of the raw data, all three (RGB) signals are balanced for the optimum results with accurate skin-tones, accurate colors and clean noise free blacks along with smooth rolled off highlights within a wide range from shadow to highlight. This is what cinematographers and colorist ask for.

Hope that clears up a few things.

Also I can take quite a bit of abuse, in good spirit, but if you really want me to share information about ALEXA, I'd appreciate a more cordial tone. I can handle disagreement or argument but the personal attacks on me or ARRI are unnecessary and make it difficult for me to share openly. I respect the group here and salute what the RED team has accomplished and the course they have set for the future. At ARRI we have some different approaches and ideas about imaging, and the sharing of these ideas back and forth results in better products and more importantly a better experience for cinematographers. The amazing thing is the breadth of high quality choices available.

Thanks for the opportunity to be allowed to communicate my views in your home, it means a lot.

Regards

 

[Bob Torrance]

Edit. Opps posted after Mr. Bravin

Wow! This wil wake you up.

This info is from the arridigital website. Maybe it will help.

Recording ARRIRAW 25.344x14.256 mm / 0.9978x0.5613" 16:9 3072 x 1728
Recording HD 23.760x13.365 mm / 0.9354x0.5262" 16:9 2880 x 1620
Monitoring/EVF 26.136x14.702 mm / 1.0290x0.5788" 16:9 3168 x 1782

I think they are writing new software for RAW right now, so its kinda pointless to get all excited about this. Yes, white balance control is good. I think both cameras will be great. The 5K advantage may be on wide landscapes and very large screens where you may see the resolution difference. But how you process footage will matter.

2880 x 1620 is downsampled to 1920 x 1080. I believe in raw it stays 2880.

We'll see when the camera ships. My 2cts

Bob Torrance

 

[chrislancaster]

The ISO is actually a scene setting. If the scene is lit and the camera set to ISO 200, one should apply a 200 ISO LUT. Applying a different LUT or other manual settings will just effect the display of the image but not the captured image information.

This is really cool....


im sorry i read this wrong .. the native would be 200 but its changeable so if you want to apply other iso for a desired effect you can ... ??

 

[Michael Hastings]

This is really cool....


im sorry i read this wrong .. the native would be 200 but its changeable so if you want to apply other iso for a desired effect you can ... ??

The example he gave was for the D21 not Alexa. Don't think he gave a "native" iso for either.

 

[George A.]

Thanks for the opportunity to be allowed to communicate my views in your home, it means a lot.

Regards

Dear Mr. Bravin,

The majority here are looking forward sincerely to news about Arri and Alexa, as - even if we are naturally a bit biased toward RED - we know perfectly that better products from several manufacturers make our lives easier.

I personally am very happy to see both Jim and someone from Arri discuss things together in the same place. This is actually amazing if you stop and think about it for a second. I hope most redusers will treat you with the same respect and civility that you and Jim are so graciously displaying. I thank you both for that.

George

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

Page 150-1484 Posts later. We have learned.

RED M-X shoots awesome images for about $40K
ARRI ALEXA shoots awesome images for about $80K

Both sensors have the letter X in their name.

REDRAW treats WB as metadata
ARRIRAW allows for WB settings to be "baked-in" but are adjustable in post.

ARRIRAW for ALEXA is still being optimized.

I'm sure technical gurus will argue the advantages and disadvantages of WB handling for at least another 50 pages.

Michael Bravin is grateful to post on here.

Jim, Jarred, Graeme, et al are grateful Michael is posting on here.

Conclusion: Community and Users win because these guys are duking it out in public and the cameras keep getting better
and more affordable.

 

[Jay Gannon]

Dear Mr. Bravin,

The majority here are looking forward sincerely to news about Arri and Alexa, as - even if we are naturally a bit biased toward RED - we know perfectly that better products from several manufacturers make our lives easier.

I personally am very happy to see both Jim and someone from Arri discuss things together in the same place. This is actually amazing if you stop and think about it for a second. I hope most redusers will treat you with the same respect and civility that you and Jim are so graciously displaying. I thank you both for that.

George

Couldn't have said it better myself.

And at the end of the day choices will be made and these cameras will always just be tools, some DP's will prefer Alexa, some will be RED users through and true. And some will stick with Sony. For me as long and we are all out making beautiful pictures and opening the market to the younger and new generations by lowering prices its a good thing.

We all appreciate the openness and the frankness that Arri and yourself shows in this forum, somewhere that I'm sure many PR consultants will have probably have told you you shouldn't be.

I'm sure Alexa will be a great system. I'm sure Epic will be a great system. I'm also sure that both will co-exist in the marketplace. In fact I'm sure both will co-exist on some sets together because of the small form factor of the Epic.

Opposing views don't necessarily mean one must be wrong.

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

I'm going to do a "fanboy thing" and say I am with George and Jay 100%.

Jay Kelley

 

[Gordon Prince]

Michael has a great opportunity here at reduser to market his camera because Jim has started this thread and let it run. Jim has closed down all the DSLR threads because of prosumer line-skipping I assume. So Michael has access to all redusers to sell his product and comment about its strengths. What I hope is that he will answer the questions about Alexa. If he doesn't it just doesn't seem fair.

I don't know sometimes what is best. If having the threads about us deleted for some reason, or letting a thread to flow like this one. :confused5:

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

Gordon, I do not understand the context of your post. "Threads about us deleted"

What "thread about us" are you referring too?

Jay

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Gordon, I do not understand the context of your post. "Threads about us deleted"

What "thread about us" are you referring too?

Jay

I am confused as well. Who is "us"?

 

[Steve Dent]

I think that as most posters here are guys, (is Wendy the only girl?) we tend to get tunnel-visioned too much on the technical minutiae of a product, because guys love gadgets & charts & stuff.

Clearly, from the rants and raves across the net, both products gather beautiful images, and are viable choices for productions across the spectrum.

I personally think whether producers and DPs and directors will choose Alexa or Red One / Epic will be based on factors other than technical specifications, which kind of moots a lot of the discussion in this thread.

Arri has done a good job of convincing high-end film/TV DPs that the transition from film to Alexa will be a comfortable, non-threatening one. I bet they are pitching workflow, form factor, probably training and education, and familiarity with Arri as a film camera company.

Their sales pitch probably goes something like, "Of course, we produce great quality images, but the MAIN thing is that we can make your transition to digital a painless one..." So in other words, they blow past the technical part in 10 seconds when pitching the product and instead focus on what a joy it'll be to use.

And guess what? It's working, because in the trade media, and hearing interviews with lots of high-end DPs, I hear a comfort level when they talk about Arri. Anticipation, even.

Red has awesome technical excellence beyond anything out there, but I think they should focus some resources on education and making sure there is comfort with non-technically oriented DPs & directors in making the transition to their product.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Keep in mind, ignoring the new M-X sensor (which to me makes this a whole new camera), the Red One is a couple of year old, and whatever is new is sexy and intriguing -- in that sense, it's a losing battle to compete with Alexa on that level, it's naturally going to be the center of attention. When the Epic hits the market, I'm sure a lot of attention will be devoted there as well.

I'm more interested in what the market will look like a year from now when both products are out there and being used regularly.

 

[Andrew M.]

With our AIT (Arri Imaging Technology) we balance the dye's used in the color filter array on the bayer mask, and the color processing/debayer of the raw data, all three (RGB) signals are balanced for the optimum results with accurate skin-tones, accurate colors and clean noise free blacks along with smooth rolled off highlights within a wide range from shadow to highlight. This is what cinematographers and colorist ask for.

Michael, thank you for explanation, I find the approach of balancing the dye's used in the color filters interesting. Adjusting WB before taking the shot is indeed vary similar to the old ways of decision-making process for the shots taken with film.

Probably you didn’t have time to go through all these posts here so you missed our heated debate about pros and cons of doing WB before or after acquisition of data from the sensor from color precision point of view. Could you shade some light if WB adjustment on Alexa is done on analog side of the sensor or after the data is already converted to digital format?

Andrew

 

[Michael Bravin]

Michael, thank you for explanation, I find the approach of balancing the dye's used in the color filter interesting. Adjusting WB before taking the shot is indeed vary similar to the old ways of decision-making process for the shots taken with film.

Probably you didn’t have time to go through all this posts here so you missed our heated debate about pros and cons of doing WB before or after acquisition of data from the sensor from color precision point of view. Could you shade some light if WB adjustment on Alexa is done on analog side of the sensor or after the data is already converted to digital format?

Andrew

Andrew

The "heated" debate about how WB is achieved was about the technique not the result. I think discussing the differences and their results (of how RED chooses to handle white balance and how ARRI chooses to handle it) is more a cinematographer's conversation, the technique discussion is more for imaging scientists

There will be more information about the technique with ALEXA when the camera is out, I'm sure.

 

[Michael Bravin]

Their sales pitch probably goes something like, "Of course, we produce great quality images, but the MAIN thing is that we can make your transition to digital a painless one..." So in other words, they blow past the technical part in 10 seconds when pitching the product and instead focus on what a joy it'll be to use.

Steve
This isnt really accurate, there is a lot of technical information available if you just Google. Every presentation I have done has a mix of the technical and practical, and we post lots of technical info at arridigital.com

Red has awesome technical excellence beyond anything out there, but I think they should focus some resources on education and making sure there is comfort with non-technically oriented DPs & directors in making the transition to their product.

You might want to look into something called REDUCATION? And I'm guessing you've never met my friend Ted Schilowitz you know... TED RED, who travels the globe doing just this. Google his name too

 

[Andrew M.]

Andrew

discussion is more for imaging scientists

There will be more information about the technique with ALEXA when the camera is out, I'm sure.

Michael, thank you again for fast response.
I agree that WB discussion here is more for imaging scientists.
You will find all kinds of people here on this forum contributing to making better tools in our trade.

Some discussions here are pure academic one and some discussions are resulting in key decisions, having significant ramification on the success of the product itself.

But above all we are all excited about changes this technology is going through.

Andrew

 

[Steve Dent]

Steve
This isnt really accurate, there is a lot of technical information available if you just Google. Every presentation I have done has a mix of the technical and practical, and we post lots of technical info at arridigital.com

You might want to look into something called REDUCATION? And I'm guessing you've never met my friend Ted Schilowitz you know... TED RED, who travels the globe doing just this. Google his name too

Of course Michael, obviously it was wild guessing on my part! But I do get the vague sense that some of the more artistic DP's out there are in the Arri camp, so I hallucinated a couple of reasons as to why that may be.

 

[Martin Stevens]

I have read the M. Bravin response to the WB Arriraw question, but I still feel
that the question has not been answered. Is it YES, or NO?

Does Arriraw have the WB baked in? Yes, or no?

Perhaps I am missing something?

Oh, and I love Arri.

 

[Joe Carney]

I saw the fxguide tv episode from NAB that cut between their DLSR and the Alexa. Even for highly compressed, the skin tones and handling of light was excellent. But what I saw at RED day was still superior in every category. While the Alexa footage was pleasing, well defined and crisp, the Red MX footage was much more organic and film like. Both cameras will have their place, but since I'm not an apple user, I like not having to deal with ProRes. Computers are powerful enough that handling R3d files is not that big a deal. When needed I'll convert to DNxHD. I realize it's not fair to compare a 4k projection to a 720p video. But I was referring to color and light, not resoluton.