Archiving services – anyone interested?

[Andrew Young]

This thread overlaps previous ones somewhat, but I started a new thread because I am looking for specific feedback on services to offer Red users.

We are a New York-based film lab and digital post facility that’s been handling original negative for 85 years. We did the recent filmout of Offhollywood’s Red test. I am also a cinematographer with an upcoming project on the Red One, so I have a personal interest in the format.

As I try to navigate the insurance requirements and production needs of my own project, I’m wondering who else out there may want to farm out this busy work to a facility. Particularly, one that has experience handling camera original and has fireproof climate-controlled vaults, as we do. Granted, some of these services may only be useful to those shooting in the East, but presumably, others could offer similar services elsewhere.

Here’s a possible scenario of services:

1a) You drop off (or FedEx in) CF cards or other temporary storage after a day’s shoot. Maybe you will have made an onset copy, or maybe not. Obviously, this wasn’t done with film.​

1b) Alternatively, you offload to Firewire drive and send that to us, holding your CF cards until step 2 is complete. (This probably makes more sense then 1a).​

2) Overnight, we make a software verified backup copy (or two) to LTO tape and Firewire drive. We could also make DVD dubs of your dailies with burn-in, or dubs to a tape format (God forbid).​

3) Your temporary media could be picked up or shipped back for re-use the next day (if 1a) , along with the Firewire drive copy for editing and the LTO tape for storage. A copy of the LTO tape could also remain in our vault, as is often the case with negative.​

4) We could also offer 2K projection of dailies in our screening room, for those working locally.
​

Does any of this sound appealing to anyone? Or do you think all of this work will be or should be done on set? Is a one day lag for off-site archiving permissible, as in the film days? Would you like us to visually verify each take (as the telecine colorist would do with film) and then reformat your cards? Or would you prefer to do this yourself? If you’re shooting a doc and just decide to store everything to mirrored drives during your production, what will do with all of your stuff when your project is done?

I realize the answers will be different depending on the budget, shooting ratio, and location of the production, but I’m just trying to figure out if there’s anything we can do to help with this thorny issue.

 

[Max Zug]

and just decide to store everything to mirrored drives during your production, what will do with all of your stuff when your project is done?

I realize the answers will be different depending on the budget, shooting ratio, and location of the production, but I’m just trying to figure out if there’s anything we can do to help with this thorny issue.

Andy,
Long time Duart customer here. You hit on my issue at present. How will I store and who will handle the storage?

One solution is to hire a staff person as my digital assets person. They would be responsible for managing the data on set -- as in clearing cards/drives and backing up -- would do any neccessary standards conversions out of red code to hit either the Avid Suite or the Final Cut suite, and then archive the material. This is where I'm leaning now, but it's more fixed cost.

If I used you guys to get us to LTO before the edit I get my archive and back-up in one fell swoop. And it's a variable cost. My editor just handles RedCode. You might consider corrections and standards conversion too. This slows down the path a bit - a day, but it may be worth it.

While we've been doing more and more of our own corrections in-house, there is no substitute for experience. I've been approached by a few colorists trying to figure out where they fit in and it sounds like a few of them are thinking portable rig and joining us on set or in post at our place.

It will be interesting to see how this shakes out.

But to answer your question, Yeah, I'm interested. The lag time is the issue right now, but giving up a day might be worth it.


max
maxfilms.com

 

[M Most]

I realize the answers will be different depending on the budget, shooting ratio, and location of the production, but I’m just trying to figure out if there’s anything we can do to help with this thorny issue.

I think this paragraph somewhat hits the nail on the head. Right now, the vast majority of Red shooting (not that there's that much, there's only 100 cameras out there) is being done by those with a do-it-yourself mentality. Part of the attraction for them is that they don't have to use a lab or a post facility for the front end work. If a reasonably budgeted production starts looking at using the Red, the mentality will be more in line with traditional film production - that is, you have a rental model for the production gear, and professional support all along the line, including the front end post work. In that scenario, I do believe that labs such as yours (and ours in Miami) will find themselves doing front end work similar to what we've done for film shows over the years - file conversion (in place of developing negative), basic color correction on those files (similar to telecine), and probably sound sync as well, since almost all of that type of production will likely be recorded double system. Someone mentioned Riot and Company 3 doing such things, and we know that "no budget" production does not go to Riot and Company 3. But in general, at the moment high end production is not using Red, for a number of reasons that have already been mentioned in this and other threads. As time goes on, we'll see. If productions like television series look at shooting with Red or anything similar, I think it's a pretty safe bet that the post production will be closely modeled on the film methods rather than the do-it-yourself scenario.

 

[Mathieu Ghekiere]

I think mmost hit the nail on the head with his post:
Red-projects often exists out of a do-it-yourself mentality, and that's also the way RED has been advetised sometimes (someone said Jim once said that he would wanted to make a camera that could be used for big features, but also for someone alone, editing and grading at home on his desktop)...

I *do* think that bigger productions with bigger budgets would be very interested in this!

 

[Andrew Young]

Hi Mike,

As a hopeless do-it-yourselfer myself, I would have to agree. This thread may be premature until (and if) the upward migration occurs. But I've already got Firewire drives all over the place with my own footage on it and I know that once my Reds arrive it's going to get a lot worse. So I have to wonder what we're all going to do keep this stuff safe. For the do-it yourselfer, I guess it just boils down to the cost of the service, as to whether they'll farm out or buy an LTO drive and do it themselves.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

We are offering LTO3 archive to our clients.

 

[Max Zug]

I guess it all depends on what we consider big budget.
I'm a director/dp who owns a small production company in Northeastern PA. About 1.6 million in revenue this year. We produce hi-end local and regional tv spots, higher-end corporate, documentary programming, and meetings projects.

I've been shooting super 16mm for years and renting 35 packages when the budget affords it. Usually a half dozen times a year. I'm looking at Red as a replacement for my S16 based productions, and for the ability to keep more revenue in house for what I presently image in 35mm. These budgets range from low 30's to a few hundred thousand. But, I can get real creative with S16 and shoot film based stuff for 15 - 20K. I would think these are really small budgets compared to many around here, but I still need to deliver the system, not just the end product to my customer. No matter how small my projects are I need to insure the media will not be corrupt or otherwise lost. Same kinda thing as with negative. And the ability to manage my client's assets is a revenue opportunity - dubs and future edits with the same source footage.

So, I think I fall more into the category of the do-it-yourselfer, but still recognize that somewhere in the chain digital asset management has to happen. If I do it myself, it will likely cost a ton in either lost work or lost assets because I'm too damn busy in the tail end. Do I hire someone on staff, a digital image tech, or do I outsource it and make it a variable cost to each production? Big budget or small budget -- the archiving and protections will have to be addressed.

max

 

[Andrew Young]

We are offering LTO3 archive to our clients.

Cool. Figured you guys would be on it.

 

[M Most]

Cool. Figured you guys would be on it.

We archive all DI projects on LTO3, and I assume we'd offer the same thing to anyone shooting on a digital format if they requested it. We offered it to the one Red project we've encountered so far, and they turned it down. What they're actually doing to back up their footage, I couldn't tell you. I just hope that they're being careful, but my guess is that they're probably not being careful enough ;-(

 

[Cail Young]

It's refreshing to see a "traditional film" business embracing and finding business opportunity in this new workflow so fast. I think you'll find a lot of interest in your services - certainly you would from us if the FedEx costs weren't quite so high

 

[Bing Bailey]

Wonder if RED are interested in providing archive services for a fee , since they know the most about the data and formats involved. might be a nice extension of the business redarchives , how about it jim , would be even cooler if from that archives you could find a way to generate a web proxy version out of the r3d files that have been archived to allow producers watch dailys remotely online

 

[Jeff Coatney]

I'm a big fan of off-site archiving, but I have a few questions for those of you that have facilities for this. What is the strategy after the LTO is written to ensure that it is stored appropriately? Are these tapes stored on-site, DuArt? In the city? The country? A salt mine? How long would retrieval take? I'd rather out-source my archiving for a fee, because I don't want to have to chase the technology every few years to make sure I can retrieve it. Besides, if you start accumulating footage, in a very short amount of time your archiving scheme will demand more and more of your productivity. My issue is with the long-term strategy, storage stability and retrieval.

 

[albert rudnicki]

I guess, it really depends on the $$ factor... At least here in Montreal

 

[Greg M]

we are planning on buying an LTO4 drive...why is everyone using LTO3?

 

[Jeff Coatney]

we are planning on buying an LTO4 drive...why is everyone using LTO3?

My point exactly. I don't want to keep buying drives every couple of years just for archiving. Let somebody else chase the technology, I just want my footage stored.

 

[chuck colburn]

You would trust someone else with your negative? "The horror the horror" lol

 

[dino g]

do not have the time to read this whole thread, so i apologize if this has already been covered, because i am actually on set shooting some toyota commercials, but from my experience, the bigger budget clients i have worked with, E! entertainment for Snoop Dogg Promos for his new reality show, and others, actually like going out to HD-CAM SR for back-up, since their final is either NTSC or Mpeg2 1080i.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

LTO4 is going to be the way to go. Contact me if you need details.

Steve

 

[Sven Seynaeve]

Thank you guys. You came up with a nice sollution for me , bringing up lto-4.
This will handle my storage more efficiently .

 

[Greg M]

do not have the time to read this whole thread, so i apologize if this has already been covered, because i am actually on set shooting some toyota commercials, but from my experience, the bigger budget clients i have worked with, E! entertainment for Snoop Dogg Promos for his new reality show, and others, actually like going out to HD-CAM SR for back-up, since their final is either NTSC or Mpeg2 1080i.

Thats all great, but pretty much a waste if you cant go out with a 1080 4:4:4 signal (dual link) which is not possible from RED. LTO-4 makes a lot more sense, especially since you retain the RAW 4K files.