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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Architecture Shoot...5D over Scarlet for the most part.

Michael Jarvis

Michael Jarvis

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I love my Scarlet and would not trade it for the world. Recently I had an architecture shoot and was forced to use the 5D on 90% of the shoot. The crop sensor on the Scarlet was just not enough to cover the room. The 5D had just enough wide coverage at 16mm to get everything in frame. I had my entire RED rig out and ready to go. I had to shed a tear realizing that it would not cut it for that sort of shoot. Of coarse the RED crushes the 5D on a lot of levels. In this particular case I completely understood that there is a camera for every type of job. In a cinematic environment the RED will win every time. When I need to cover lots of footage in a very small amount of time and in a very tight environment, the 5D was just a better choice.


This comment was just to address the folks that have posted on here before about not selling your other cameras. Each of them has a place. The Scarlet is my primary camera and I am thrilled to have done business with RED. I plan on adding an Epic as soon as the Dragon comes out. It was just interesting to me that when push came to shove the crop sensor forced me to use the old rig.

Do you think RED will every release a feature that allows us to choose the cropped sensor or let us take advantage of the full sensor at any resolution? I know I could just buy some really low mm lens but it seems that this kind of innovation is well within the genius spectrum that RED could deliver in the near future. Ideas...
 
Was it for stills or video? At that wide, with video, it's one of the few scenarios where you couldn't really work around moire/aliasing.

No, RED will not release a firmware allowing you to use the full sensor (but at 4k resolution), it's beyond the scope of the hardware. You're better off hoping for 5k at 24p on Scarlet. As for Dragon, 6k will be slightly bigger than MX's 1.3x 5k, but 5k dragon will be slightly smaller than 1.3x, so you may want to continue to hold on to your 5D then as well.
 
While Architecture does demand on both camera and lens, on the wide end, true architecture can only be done with Tilt Shift lenses only, as to remain absolutely loyal to the perspective and structure photographed.

On this end, if using a Full Frame camera, vs. a smaller Sensor camera, with the same lens, I can understand your frustration, fact is that you choose your tools based on what you do, but you can also make by with out them, get good results, but never GREAT.

Of course not al architecture demands super wide and or to be T/S lenses.
 
You need Shift to allow you to compose while keeping the camera square, level and plumb. Architects don't like their buildings to lean! Perspective can be corrected later in Photoshop reasonably well, except that it still distorts the geometry of the architecture, often turning squares into rectangles. I have shot architecture with my Epic and the 17 TS-E but there are some circumstances where a wider lens is needed and there is nothing wider in a PC lens.

Here the Epic with a T/S lens gave me awesome dynamic range...

A003_C016_1112C3.jpg


I do generally prefer my still camera for this work, though, as it is the perfect solution for architectural applications...

Rm3d_004.jpg
Rm3d_008.jpg


Cheers,
CB
 
In this particular situation it is not a case of "not having the right lens." I do have the right lens. I used it on the 5D and it was perfect. It was just a hair to shy to work with the red. 16mm in most cases will be fine. Its the cropping issue was caused me not to use the RED. That being said...I can always use more lens choices. But with the RED in such a small room, it requires a small lens. Thats why the 5D for this shoot was the way to go. Don't get me wrong, the RED is a superior camera in every other way. The field of view just made it not possible to use with a 16mm lens for Architecture work.

The tilt pan comment...absolutely. A must.
 
I think what people were trying to indicate is you had the right lens for a 5D (16mm) but a 16mm designed for a FF camera will only have a FOV that's the equivalent of about a 24-26mm lens on what you are calling the Scarlet's "cropped" sensor. If you used that same lens on a 7D, for example, you would've had the same problem with FOV. In this sense people are correct who suggest you didn't have the appropriate lens with a sufficient FOV on the Scarlet. And there is no way the Scarlet can overcome this, or the Epic either, except if the sensor were to be changed to a FF sensor. The Tokina 11-16 would've allowed you to do the job on the Scarlet for example. It's a good lens to have and very reasonable and comes in Canon mount.
 
Christopher Barrett said:
You need Shift to allow you to compose while keeping the camera square, level and plumb. Architects don't like their buildings to lean! Perspective can be corrected later in Photoshop reasonably well, except that it still distorts the geometry of the architecture, often turning squares into rectangles. I have shot architecture with my Epic and the 17 TS-E but there are some circumstances where a wider lens is needed and there is nothing wider in a PC lens.

Here the Epic with a T/S lens gave me awesome dynamic range...

A003_C016_1112C3.jpg



I do generally prefer my still camera for this work, though, as it is the perfect solution for architectural applications...

Rm3d_004.jpg
Rm3d_008.jpg


Cheers,
CB
Click to expand...

It's interesting that you should use this image to illustrate the necessities of swings and tilts in architecture photography.... The horizontals appear askew somewhat giving the impression that the room is off plumb, the chairs look like they are about to roll out of frame right.
 
Michael Jarvis said:
I love my Scarlet and would not trade it for the world. Recently I had an architecture shoot and was forced to use the 5D on 90% of the shoot. The crop sensor on the Scarlet was just not enough to cover the room. The 5D had just enough wide coverage at 16mm to get everything in frame.
Do you think RED will every release a feature that allows us to choose the cropped sensor or let us take advantage of the full sensor at any resolution? I know I could just buy some really low mm lens but it seems that this kind of innovation is well within the genius spectrum that RED could deliver in the near future. Ideas...
Click to expand...

I don't think you quite understand, or maybe you do and your post is just confusing... but the Scarlet sensor isn't "cropped" compared to the 5D, it's a physically smaller sensor -- the 5D has a FF35 sensor (36mm x 24mm) in it. The upcoming Dragon sensor isn't FF35 either. The sensor area you use in RAW mode on a Red camera determines the resolution because otherwise you'd have to do RAW-to-RAW downscaling. That's why different resolution settings in the Red camera use different sized areas of the sensor.

Yes, the Scarlet doesn't use all of the area of the Mysterium-X sensor compared to an Epic (a 4K area instead of the full 5K area), but the Mysterium-X sensor is not FF35 so you aren't going to achieve the same field of view as the same focal length lens would on the 5D... if a 5K area were allowed in the Scarlet, you would only get a mild increase in view from your lenses compared to 4K. (I believe it's the processing power in the Scarlet that limits you to 4K and in frame rates... so a firmware upgrade wouldn't help though maybe I'm wrong, maybe there's a way to save on data elsewhere to compensate.)

What you really need are shorter focal lengths for your Scarlet if you need a wider field of view than the 16mm is giving you. A 16mm is only "right" (as you put it) for the FF35 sensor on the 5D... what you need is something like an 11mm lens for your Scarlet if that's the field of view you find the most useful.
 
Thanks for the responses, info, insight. I need to get a lens more applicable for the Scarlet in this particular environment. I was leaning towards the new Zeiss 15mm 2.8 but now I am leaning towards the Tokina 11-16. I have never used the Tokina so I have no point of reference beside my opinion of the images it produces. Looks amazing. How is the sharpness compared to the Zeiss. I have not used the Zeiss 15mm yet either, just looked at its specs. Looks like a great 15mm. I will be shooting 4K pretty much all the time with the Scarlet but I am curious of the sharpness of the Tokina at lower resolutions. Any thoughts?
 
i'd try out the tokina.

david, not to get off track... but the scarlet does indeed capture 5k at 12fps... :)
 
Bill Anderson said:
It's interesting that you should use this image to illustrate the necessities of swings and tilts in architecture photography.... The horizontals appear askew somewhat giving the impression that the room is off plumb, the chairs look like they are about to roll out of frame right.
Click to expand...


Ha! Ok, you've got me there, Bill. I was 0.23 degrees out of level. It is indeed harder to level an Epic than a Tech Camera.
 
Not to take anything away from your great work Christopher, it's just that that one felt a wee bit .... you know.

I'm sure you've had these situations when everything is indeed plumb and yet the image looks... askew, and so it needs to be put slightly askew in order for it to feel right. Joy. ( :
 
The Tokina 11-16 mm would not fit an architectural workflow because the barrel distorsion and the lack ok shift movements.

I am waiting for a 24x36 mm Red,while my Canon Ts and Nikon Pc just want to be near of a FF Hdslr.
 
Brad Webb said:
Why is that Ketch?
Click to expand...

Christopher answered for me... ;)

Christopher Barrett said:
You need Shift to allow you to compose while keeping the camera square, level and plumb. Architects don't like their buildings to lean! Perspective can be corrected later in Photoshop reasonably well, except that it still distorts the geometry of the architecture, often turning squares into rectangles. I have shot architecture with my Epic and the 17 TS-E but there are some circumstances where a wider lens is needed and there is nothing wider in a PC lens.

Cheers,
CB
Click to expand...

Thanks Christopher, and nice shot there, really beautiful rendition on colors, and great vertical and horizontal alignment, this is what an Architecture picture needs to look like, no bended lines any were, or it will make the Architect SCREAM your ears off, if He/She was ever to see their work exposed wrongly... ;)
 
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