Apple Post production environment for Red

[Sanjin Jukic]

If you want to work with 4K at 4K and viewing at 4K and want realtime, that's a COMPLETELY different animal.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

And you would need existing 4K projector to watch what you are doing. Sounds silly!

 

[Andrew Kimery]

And the accessibility of all this sweet tech is completely moot if you can't tell a good story w/an acceptable level of production value. Right now anyone of us can go to the local sporting goods store and buy a basketball, but that doesn't mean we can all play in the NBA.


-A

 

[Rocket]

I am working - today - at a prospect site on an evaluation of a high-resolution stereo system that is pushing about 1.4GB/s sustained read.

Not counting the SCRATCH license - this is with about US$100K list/retail worth of kit.

Two years ago, getting this throughput would have been about US$500K.

Moore is your friend.

Lucas
------
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

Hmm, that has me thinking. Our 4K setup comes to $368,790 all in. I wonder what the difference is. Are they using Brightdrive storage? I can't imagine South African import duties and taxes will make up all that difference.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

And the accessibility of all this sweet tech is completely moot if you can't tell a good story w/an acceptable level of production value. Right now anyone of us can go to the local sporting goods store and buy a basketball, but that doesn't mean we can all play in the NBA.


-A

Ok I'm going to be snarky here because I'm sick and tired of hearing this. YES EVERYBODY KNOWS YOU HAVE TO TELL A GOOD STORY. EVERYBODY! Now... back to the topic at hand.

 

[Jared VanLeuven]

Dead horse award. Wow, people keep winning it too.

Jarred, can you just open a new section of the boards for the endless "Toys will not buy you Talent" debates?

 

[Lucas Wilson]

Hmm, that has me thinking. Our 4K setup comes to $368,790 all in. I wonder what the difference is. Are they using Brightdrive storage? I can't imagine South African import duties and taxes will make up all that difference.

Brightdrive is a fantastic set of kit!! Say "hi" to Peter for me.

The particular setup I am using today is based on Facilis 24Ds.

Lucas

 

[Andrew Kimery]

Ok I'm going to be snarky here because I'm sick and tired of hearing this. YES EVERYBODY KNOWS YOU HAVE TO TELL A GOOD STORY. EVERYBODY! Now... back to the topic at hand.

Unfortunately "knowing" and "doing" aren't the same thing. And it's just my opinion that one might want to see if one can do what one knows must be done before one blindly drops a significant chuck of change on an assumption. But I'm just pragmatic like that.

Yer sick of people saying, "it's the story, stupid" I'm sick of people saying, "All I needs is this piece of gear to be successful" so I guess we just cancel each other out. :bleh:


pixelchef,
I think "Toys will not buy you experience" might be a better phrase. I know lots of talented people who just need experience to really hone and harness that talent.


-A

 

[M Most]

I am working - today - at a prospect site on an evaluation of a high-resolution stereo system that is pushing about 1.4GB/s sustained read.

Not counting the SCRATCH license - this is with about US$100K list/retail worth of kit.

This is not likely counting a projector. Or construction of the room. Or backup storage.

Unless, of course, you're not talking about a projection based environment. But if you're not, what's the point?

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Yer sick of people saying, "it's the story, stupid" I'm sick of people saying, "All I needs is this piece of gear to be successful" so I guess we just cancel each other out. :bleh:

-A

I'm sick of hearing it because it doesn't mean anything. Its' like saying "good film making technique is more important than bad film making." or "You should be nice to people." It sounds really good to say but in the end it contributes nothing and really is just a form of hand waving. It's nonsense.

It's almost impossible to "talk about story" so nobody does it. It's like interjecting into a conversation about the importance of ants in the world ecosystem: "Humans breath oxygen! It's really important for them to live." The correct response to that is... "Uhhh.. yeah... so what does that have to do with Ants?"

And you know what? I know a lot of people who do just need some equipment to be successful. If I had access every night to more production equipment I know I would be shooting stuff every day. I know that where I am professionally is greatly in thanks to the equipment I've had access to. Equipment can hold you back. If you're trying to edit your movie in Windows Movie Maker and using floppies as a storage medium your movie is going to be significantly less successful than my system edited on a brand new Avid Nitris. No matter how talented you are.

The goal of technology is always to aquire just the right amount that enables you without standing in the way. If the OP has to spend half the time managing data and staring at a render screen instead of doing what he wants to be doing: making movies then technology has failed him and he would be more likely to succed "if he only had the equipment."

 

[Lucas Wilson]

This is not likely counting a projector. Or construction of the room. Or backup storage.

Unless, of course, you're not talking about a projection based environment. But if you're not, what's the point?

You mean everybody doesn't have a dual-stream 2048x1080 4:4:4 capable projector?

Details, details...



Lucas

 

[Rocket]

This is not likely counting a projector. Or construction of the room. Or backup storage.

Unless, of course, you're not talking about a projection based environment. But if you're not, what's the point?

Yeah the price I quoted included a Christie CP2000 projector ($85,000) and a 1920 x 1080 50 inch plasma screen, but not the construction of the room. Munro Acoustics in London are handling that, we are looking at building two theatres, both with 9m screens, one for DI and the other for audio post. Both would have Christie CP2000's but the DI theatre also has a SXRD 4K projector and a 4K playout box. If this all goes ahead, they would be the first THX and Dolby premier certified theatres in South Africa.

It is fundamentally true that "toys" will not make good films, but I have to agree that this being a technology focused forum, and that most of us here are in the industry as either camera owner/operators, rental houses, post and vfx houses, directors, producers, and who knows what else... it kind of goes without saying. We all know, understand and accept it as a basic fundamental truth.

I do feel it is necessary to add though that with the continual progress of software and gui based solutions taking over in every corner of the post process, it is getting easier and easier for average talent to 'drag and drop' to an acceptable standard, because so much is automated within the software.

Just think of 3D animation, everybody and thier brother has a pirate copy of 3D Studio Max or Maya Unlimited and can go through the tutorials and teach themselves to model, texture, light, rig and animate to a level that will get them paid work if they can make themselves a nice showreel. A few years ago this was impossible, a animator was a highly specialized, highly sought after, and highly paid professional.

Think of colour correction and grading now with tools such as Apple's Color, and even the built in grading tools in Avid Xpress Pro, it's not so hard anymore to get an acceptable grade done. You don't have to be a genius to press the right buttons and let the software do the hard part.

The RED itself! This week there have been a few "noob" threads where someone has ordered a Red kit with no or little background even with a Handycam. The fact is, the RED is not going to be that hard to operate, yes, focus and exposure will be a learning curve even for those used to higher end camcorders, but with practise, pretty soon we will have a lot more technically able camera operators out there than ever before. This doesn't say anything for needing an eye for lighting and composition, and there is no software that will automate that. In the end that is what will separate a professional from an amatuer with more money than sense.

What I am trying to say, is that it's getting easier all the time because of the tools... the "toys".

For those of us that don't want to be overrun by the hoardes of "filmmakers" that can quite easily handle thier entire production from shoot to edit to final grade on thier own in the comfort of thier living room and honestly end up with a "good" result, we are going to have to find new ways of making ourselves worth our hourly rates and salaries.

The field is getting wider, the average standard of production is getting higher (and easier to achieve for more people) and so it will only be the absolutely extraordinary talent that push the tools to thier limits (or invent thier own tools) that will stay on top.

We are not so exclusive or special anymore, more and more normal non-industry people can do what used to set us apart, that's just a fact.

On the flipside, it's a huge bonus for the independent film movement, because if you have an awesome story, and you are a standout storyteller, the tools are there to bring your film into being at a standard never before possible without a multi million dollar budget.

 

[Arnaud Paris]

Amen!

 

[Andrew Kimery]

It's almost impossible to "talk about story" so nobody does it. It's like interjecting into a conversation about the importance of ants in the world ecosystem: "Humans breath oxygen! It's really important for them to live." The correct response to that is... "Uhhh.. yeah... so what does that have to do with Ants?"

It's not impossible to talk about story, but few people talk about their stories online for fear of someone stealing their idea. There are many discussions about movie or TV show plots and what worked/didn't work. I talk about scripts and story/show ideas w/my friends/co-workers frequently if one of us is looking for a sounding board. I think talking online about lighting or composition is more difficult because those are visual things, but they are things you have to know when you go out to shoot something.

And you know what? I know a lot of people who do just need some equipment to be successful. If I had access every night to more production equipment I know I would be shooting stuff every day. I know that where I am professionally is greatly in thanks to the equipment I've had access to. Equipment can hold you back. If you're trying to edit your movie in Windows Movie Maker and using floppies as a storage medium your movie is going to be significantly less successful than my system edited on a brand new Avid Nitris. No matter how talented you are.

Of course equipment can hold you back in some instances, but it takes experience to know whether it's you or your gear that is the culprit. It also takes experience to know what you need, what you want, and what doesn't really help you much at all but would be cool to have anyway.:greedy: :tongue:

The goal of technology is always to aquire just the right amount that enables you without standing in the way. If the OP has to spend half the time managing data and staring at a render screen instead of doing what he wants to be doing: making movies then technology has failed him and he would be more likely to succed "if he only had the equipment."

And if OP goes way beyond his knowledge the technology goes from helping him to dragging him down. Over at the HD forum on the Cow there is a recent post by a filmmaker that didn't look harder enough before he leapt and now he's looking for help in fixing the very expensive mistakes he's made. That's a position I don't think any of us what to see each other in which is why I think it's fine for someone to say, "Hey, step away from that shiny new piece of gear and make sure it's what you really need and can afford." 'Cause we've all been there and at one time or another we've probably all gone over the edge and made a purchase that we really didn't need to and kicked ourselves later because of it.

I'm not posting to be discouraging or disparaging. I'm posting because I just want to make sure the OP understands what money can buy (gear) and cannot buy (knowledge to use the gear effectively). The last thing I want is for him to spend a ton of money on gear only later to go, "uh-oh, I'm in way over my head. What the hell am I going to do now?" like the as mentioned poster over at the Cow.

My first post was meant to be humorous and cautionary, but if it just came off as flippant that was not my intent.


-A

 

[Ben Feuer]

It's almost impossible to "talk about story" so nobody does it. It's like interjecting into a conversation about the importance of ants in the world ecosystem: "Humans breath oxygen! It's really important for them to live." The correct response to that is... "Uhhh.. yeah... so what does that have to do with Ants?"

This is horribly O/T, so I apologize for that, but I think this is an interesting statement.
I personally believe good story can be taught and talked about - or at least, can be learned and heard. I'm slowly coming around to the opinion that good storytellers are really just good listeners. Sort of reanimating a lot of parts that nobody thought would fit well together. Then you throw on the sticky-glue of Genre + Technique and bang! Everybody's saying, that new robot ya got there is cool! Can I have one?
Where money bites you in the patootie is in getting the good word out. I think we can all pretty much agree that if theaters everywhere were showing our movie, trailers were running in the theater, and ads were up on billboards across the country ... PEOPLE WOULD GO TO SEE IT. But in the end, would it make any money? Odds are not great. So the "real" films are in the same boat as the "amateur" films in that regard.
Ultimately, I think money begets money, and story begets story. If you love stories, stories will come to you. If you love money ... well, you'll get what you want, too.
What if you love both? Probably you'll have to choose at some point. Maybe more than once.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I agree perhaps "It's impossible to talk about Story"(tm) is the wrong way to say it. "It's impossible to talk about good storytelling in the abstract" is a slightly more accurate statement.

Sure there are good things to keep in mind, and definitely some good resources to telling stories but in the end it's going to come down to "Is this story any good?"

I think people wildly overestimate the number of people who don't think story is important.

 

[Alexander Black]

Sure, if I had taken a couple disposable cameras to bhutan, I'd have some nice snapshots. I took an Xpan, it made a difference.

The reality is, of course, story matters _but so does production value_ - I just loaned my fiancées cousin a $500 mic and told her to buy an HDV (shudder, well better than nothing and she's going to the middle of nowhere) so she could make a small documentary. It will make a huge difference. She was going to go with some samsung SD god-knows-what.

Imagine ratatouille done by 4 people in a garage. It's absolutely possible. The result would not gross in the 100+ million range.

The trick is getting the story right _and_ the production value, and the tools help. Um, a lot.

_a

 

[Andrew Kimery]

Sure, if I had taken a couple disposable cameras to bhutan, I'd have some nice snapshots. I took an Xpan, it made a difference.

The reality is, of course, story matters _but so does production value_ - I just loaned my fiancées cousin a $500 mic and told her to buy an HDV (shudder, well better than nothing and she's going to the middle of nowhere) so she could make a small documentary. It will make a huge difference. She was going to go with some samsung SD god-knows-what.

Imagine ratatouille done by 4 people in a garage. It's absolutely possible. The result would not gross in the 100+ million range.

The trick is getting the story right _and_ the production value, and the tools help. Um, a lot.

_a

Like I said before, better tools can help if the tool is what's holding you back. For example, I'm not very good at color correction. Is my biggest problem that I don't have Apple Color or that I don't have a very good understanding of how to color correct? Would spending $500 to get Apple Color help me more than spending $50 on books covering color theory and the art of color correction and grading?

Of course one should strive to tell the best story w/the best production value they can but a solid story will carry lacking production value much more often than solid production value will carry a lacking story. To steal a line from a drumming board I haunt, "I like having jelly w/my toast, but if I don't have any toast what am I going to put my jelly on?":tongue:


-A

 

[GlennChan]

I think people wildly overestimate the number of people who don't think story is important.

I would look at what film school students make for their final/thesis film. Out of all of the ones produced by a given year of students, most of them just don't have compelling stories.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Would spending $500 to get Apple Color help me more than spending $50 on books covering color theory and the art of color correction and grading?
-A

Yes. If you can't do secondaries, individually control shadows,mids,higlights. If you dont' have the software to properly grade, knowing how won't do you any good.

 

[M Most]

Yes. If you can't do secondaries, individually control shadows,mids,higlights. If you dont' have the software to properly grade, knowing how won't do you any good.

Too frequent and too early use of secondaries is the hallmark of inexperienced colorists who paint themselves into corners they can't get out of. If you're first learning color correction, you shouldn't have access to such tools, and if you do, you should ignore their presence. If you can't make a decently corrected image using basic color balance tools, you don't understand what you're doing and need more instruction/practice/talent. Having trained at least 20 colorists over the years, I can tell you that the ones who developed the best skills were the ones who understood what I just said. I would compare this to driving race cars: it takes a lot of instruction, practice, and skill to properly control one at its limits. You don't suddenly get in one and drive at 220 mph. You start out with something you can control. Same thing with color correction. The secondaries, area isolations, highlight saturation curves, and such are for those who already possess the skill to do basic color balance, both technical and creative. Putting such tools in the hands of the inexperienced encourages bad habits that never get broken. When PageMaker came out, we saw a lot of really crappy page design, by those who thought it was purely the tools and not the finely honed skill and innate talent. I expect now we'll see quite a bit of the same thing.