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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Anyone else notice something special about firmware 3.3.3 for Scarlet....

This full frame 1080p really helps me for "reality tv" wide angle shots(also I need the full frame, so normally things are not framed well in reality tv). There's also lot of dead time but you basically have to keep the camera going because you never know when something is going to happen.

So if I am reading this thread right, if I buy:
"Atomos Samurai Recorder and Western Digital 1TB Hard Disk Drive Kit"
"BNC to BNC (SDI) Serial Digital Interface Cable"

I should be able to run the camera for like 12 hours recording at 24fps at 1080p, with 422 HQ Pro Res ... right ? What configurations do people recommend for this?
 
Another question; what comes out of the SDI when you select, for example, 3k/48fps and have look around enabled? Is it FF5k-at-1080p/48 (in a 60i wrapper)? Too bad SDI didn't support 60p.

Also, what about HDMI? Does it support 60p? If that's the case, we could be getting 5k-supersampled-1080p at 60fps on to a Ninja (although HDMI sucks as a connection.)

PatrickFaith said:
This full frame 1080p really helps me for "reality tv" wide angle shots(also I need the full frame, so normally things are not framed well in reality tv). There's also lot of dead time but you basically have to keep the camera going because you never know when something is going to happen.

So if I am reading this thread right, if I buy:
"Atomos Samurai Recorder and Western Digital 1TB Hard Disk Drive Kit"
"BNC to BNC (SDI) Serial Digital Interface Cable"

I should be able to run the camera for like 12 hours recording at 24fps at 1080p, with 422 HQ Pro Res ... right ? What configurations do people recommend for this?
Click to expand...

You're forgetting one thing: 12hours worth of batteries (for the camera -- the ATOMOS comes with two batteries that are hot swappable for continuous shooting)! But yeah, it should work that way. I would read ATOMOS's website, as they have a list of 2.5" HDDs and SSDs that they recommend. Also with HDDs you have to worry about movement/shaking, whereas SSDs won't have read/write errors if jostled around since they have no moving parts... plus SSDs use less battery... I'm also not sure how much of an advantage ProRes HQ is over regular 422 in terms of quality, but it is 1.5x the file size. It may be worth bumping it down to regular 422 so you can record more (assuming you go with an SSD instead of an HDD.) Plus there are offloading speed advantages with SSDs.
 
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Mike P. said:
Another question; what comes out of the SDI when you select, for example, 3k/48fps and have look around enabled? Is it FF5k-at-1080p/48 (in a 60i wrapper)? Too bad SDI didn't support 60p.
You're forgetting one thing: 12hours worth of batteries (for the camera -- the ATOMOS comes with two batteries that are hot swappable for continuous shooting)! But yeah, it should work that way. I would read ATOMOS's website, as they have a list of 2.5" HDDs and SSDs that they recommend. Also with HDDs you have to worry about movement/shaking, whereas SSDs won't have read/write errors if jostled around since they have no moving parts... plus SSDs use less battery... I'm also not sure how much of an advantage ProRes HQ is over regular 422 in terms of quality, but it is 1.5x the file size. It may be worth bumping it down to regular 422 so you can record more (assuming you go with an SSD instead of an HDD.) Plus there are offloading speed advantages with SSDs.
Click to expand...

Great recommendations ... thanks. Since the RedSSD's are coming down in price I might go that way(you get a lot for your money as far as time with that new 512 SSD). Recently i was doing a shot at 7 PM at night, and I messed up with with ISO on my scarlet (it's always a rush shooting at that magic hour) ... Since i was recording at 6:1 Redcode at 4k, I was easily able to "save" the shot (which btw was not repeatable since it had "foilage" destruction in it). If I was doing this with ProRES ... the ISO settings of the camera do matter and i wouldn't have had enough dynamic range to fix the shot (at least with my canon camera's, if I mess up on the ISO ... it's close hopeless fixing the shot in post - aside sending it to the vfx guys - which is huge $).
 
Yeah, plus you can mess around with the compression ratio to get double the recording times... I would imagine 4k 12:1 downscaled to 1080p will look pretty similar to ProRES 422 at 1080p, plus you'd be starting from RAW (no baked in ISO or colour temp.) On 512GB I'm calculating 3 hours of footage at 12:1/24fps.

Still, for the cost on one 512 card ($3900), you could get a Samurai ($1600), a couple of 250gb SSD (~$250 x2 = ~8 hours shooting), and a 128GB REDmag ($1250) and still have ~$500+ in your pocket... I've never shot Reality TV, but something tells me quantity takes precedence over quality (you think you'll need more than 3 hours worth of record time?)
 
Not to ruin the party but the debayer level on a epic or scarlets realtime 1080P hdsdi output is not a full one right? So your recording a compressed hdsi signal into a compressed 422hq signal on the Samurai. Is that kinda like making a bad copy of of a bad copy? like duping VHS? Im not sure but I don't think you are getting a real time full debayer form the sensor on the 1080p hdsdi output on these cameras right? What is the debayer level? anyone know?! Am i making any sense? I bet not...

Hey ya gotta do what ya gottta do to pay the bills but I'm just wondering what these files look like at the end of the pipeline? are they gradeable? I guess for reality tv or other projects it would give it sort of a different "look".
 
Mike P. said:
Another question; what comes out of the SDI when you select, for example, 3k/48fps and have look around enabled? Is it FF5k-at-1080p/48 (in a 60i wrapper)? Too bad SDI didn't support 60p.

Also, what about HDMI? Does it support 60p? If that's the case, we could be getting 5k-supersampled-1080p at 60fps on to a Ninja (although HDMI sucks as a connection.)



You're forgetting one thing: 12hours worth of batteries (for the camera -- the ATOMOS comes with two batteries that are hot swappable for continuous shooting)! But yeah, it should work that way. I would read ATOMOS's website, as they have a list of 2.5" HDDs and SSDs that they recommend. Also with HDDs you have to worry about movement/shaking, whereas SSDs won't have read/write errors if jostled around since they have no moving parts... plus SSDs use less battery... I'm also not sure how much of an advantage ProRes HQ is over regular 422 in terms of quality, but it is 1.5x the file size. It may be worth bumping it down to regular 422 so you can record more (assuming you go with an SSD instead of an HDD.) Plus there are offloading speed advantages with SSDs.
Click to expand...

The Ninja is not supported because it can't deal with the fully progressive signal from the RED through HDMI.
 
Jason H said:
Not to ruin the party but the debayer level on a epic or scarlets realtime 1080P hdsdi output is not a full one right? So your recording a compressed hdsi signal into a compressed 422hq signal on the Samurai. Is that kinda like making a bad copy of of a bad copy? like duping VHS? Im not sure but I don't think you are getting a real time full debayer form the sensor on the 1080p hdsdi output on these cameras right? What is the debayer level? anyone know?! Am i making any sense? I bet not...

Hey ya gotta do what ya gottta do to pay the bills but I'm just wondering what these files look like at the end of the pipeline? are they gradeable? I guess for reality tv or other projects it would give it sort of a different "look".
Click to expand...



The Debayer out the HD-SDI/HDMI is quite good actually. I believe it's a full debayer as well.
 
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Thanks Sami. I did notice that it supports 720/60p... so does SDI/Samurai though...

Jason H said:
Not to ruin the party but the debayer level on a epic or scarlets realtime 1080P hdsdi output is not a full one right? So your recording a compressed hdsi signal into a compressed 422hq signal on the Samurai. Is that kinda like making a bad copy of of a bad copy? like duping VHS? Im not sure but I don't think you are getting a real time full debayer form the sensor on the 1080p hdsdi output on these cameras right? What is the debayer level? anyone know?! Am i making any sense? I bet not...

Hey ya gotta do what ya gottta do to pay the bills but I'm just wondering what these files look like at the end of the pipeline? are they gradeable? I guess for reality tv or other projects it would give it sort of a different "look".
Click to expand...

I've personally used files directly into the Samurai (Bob's actually) and they were, in my opinion, great. Obviously not 4k/RAW great, but I couldn't tell the difference when both were compressed down to 1080p ProRes. When you consider that the SDI uses the entire 5k sensor now that look around is enabled, even at half debayer it's more resolution than 2k. ALSO, when you record the SDI stream, it's actually cleaner at higher ISOs than 4k RAW rendered to 1080p. There are a couple of threads that show the difference.

What I'm interested in is recording a 720p/60fps stream (as 1080p isn't possible) out of the SDI with full FOV and all of the 5k sensor. It could potentially look better than the cropped 2k mode at 60p because the 720p images would be supersampled from the entire 5k image (not just 2k down to 1080p, but 5k down to 720p.) As has been mentioned by Graeme, supersampling leads to an incredibly high MTF after the debayer and the difference is visible all the way down to SD resolutions (the reason why film shown in SD still looks good). No doubt if SDI could record at 1080/60p, the 5k-to-1080p would probably look vastly better than the RAW 2k/60p that the camera does internally. Obviously a massive compromise (it's not RAW), but hey, it'd "free" image quality and 5k-FOV at 60p... plus ProRes drops right into the timeline of pretty much everything.
 
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Not to ruin the party but the debayer level on a epic or scarlets realtime 1080P hdsdi output is not a full one right?
Click to expand...

Internet rumor / technical explanation of REDCINE-X de-bayer options taken (wildly) out of context. The signal quality of the 10-bit 4:2:2 YCbCr HD-SDI output is at least as good as a ProRes or DNxHD recording can maintain.
 
Another question; what comes out of the SDI when you select, for example, 3k/48fps and have look around enabled? Is it FF5k-at-1080p/48 (in a 60i wrapper)? Too bad SDI didn't support 60p.
Click to expand...

Depends on what you set the camera's HD-SDI output to - typically that would be 1080p / 23.98 fps progressive.


Also, what about HDMI? Does it support 60p? If that's the case, we could be getting 5k-supersampled-1080p at 60fps on to a Ninja (although HDMI sucks as a connection.)
Click to expand...

Yes the camera's HDMI also supports 1080p 60 fps output.
 
hmmm ... great discussion. This full sensor output is such a cool feature of the Scarlet ... makes sense & cents to get a Samurai - I am sure I will find a lot of uses for it.

I think I'm still going to go with the 1TB one, for just huge shots of painting/etc (i'll let it copy to another disk drive over night) ... also I guess i will need the power adapter for 7 hour plus shots "ATOMAS AC Adapter for Ninja / Samurai / Connector".
I'm probably also going to go with large RED SSD, i guess now I can use my touchpad, record to RED SSD ... and also record to the samurai at the same time ... right ?
 
Stuart English said:
Depends on what you set the camera's HD-SDI output to - typically that would be 1080p / 23.98 fps progressive.

Yes the camera's HDMI also supports 1080p 60 fps output.
Click to expand...

Now I'm confused. I thought SDI at 1080 was limited to 60i (not 60p... aka 1080/60i), so off board recorders capture a 30p image (or at 48fps, it's 48-in-a-60i wrapper that requires pulldown removal). Are you saying that the SDI and the HDMI support 1080 at 60p? The samurai apparently can't record that (can the PIX)?
 
Mike P. said:
Now I'm confused. I thought SDI at 1080 was limited to 60i (not 60p... aka 1080/60i), so off board recorders capture a 30p image (or at 48fps, it's 48-in-a-60i wrapper that requires pulldown removal). Are you saying that the SDI and the HDMI support 1080 at 60p? The samurai apparently can't record that (can the PIX)?
Click to expand...

EPIC and Scarlet both have 3GHz HD-SDI - which supports 1920 x 1080 true progressive at up to 60 fames per sec. The HDMI output can support up to the same frame size / frame rate.

Whether any specific recorder also supports 3GHz HD-SDI you will need to check their specifications. If they don't then select either 1080p @ 24 fps or 720p @ 60fps as we don't support 1080i or PsF interlaced output formats.
 
Which is the earliest firmware version that has the full 16x9 clean output- that is one that can be recorded with no black bars and occupies the full raster of a 1920x1080 signal? Is it just the 3.3 beta or is there a release?
 
Monte Casey said:
We have a full frame 24FPS real time debayer and downsample straight out out of the camera. That takes more processing power than dumping RAW to a SSD. Let's get some RED folk in here to shed some light why we can't have 5k at 24FPS, or maybe it's on the roadmap?

http://www.thefakingof.net/2012/07/12/scarlet-full-frame-5k-enabled/
Click to expand...
The RAW data is not "dumped" to an SSD. It's compressed using REDCODE. The compression is what takes the horsepower and limits what you can record as RAW.
 
Stuart English said:
Depends on what you set the camera's HD-SDI output to - typically that would be 1080p / 23.98 fps progressive.




Yes the camera's HDMI also supports 1080p 60 fps output.
Click to expand...
Stuart, am I understanding correctly that if I set my camera to 2K 60fps with lookaround enabled and set the HDMI or SDI out to 1080p60 I would be able to record to an external recorder a downscaled 5K image at 60 frames per second (provided the recorder can take in 1080p60)?
 
Monte Casey said:
We have a full frame 24FPS real time debayer and downsample straight out out of the camera. That takes more processing power than dumping RAW to a SSD. Let's get some RED folk in here to shed some light why we can't have 5k at 24FPS, or maybe it's on the roadmap?
Click to expand...
That would be a huge gift and a big surprise.
But two thoughts:

Debayering and encoding REDCODE RAW (it's not just dumping RAW) are two totally different tasks, probably handled by different chips or parts on a chip. One being possible doesn't necessarily mean the other one is doable too. And second, do we really get a full debayer on our preview-devices and hdmi/sdi? I'm not sure about that.
 
BTW, third thought... Has anyone ever tried to playback a few R3D-files made with EPIC that are out of Scarlet's specs? ;)
 
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