Anybody hear about any cheap ultrahd/4k camcorders?

[Wayne Morellini]

Anybody hear about anything under $3k? I've wasted a bit of time on google over the last year keeping an eye out. The chip sets from ambarella have been announced a while back. They manufacture the chipsets used in many cheap camcorders and pocket camcorders. There should be sub $700 uhd ones by now.

I'm hoping that somebody wises up and does a m43 model with 4k/uhd in China this year or early next rather than just an oversized pocket cam.

 

[Mike P.]

More important than resolution is chip size, in my opinion... if it's a 1/3-1/2 4k sensor (like in the GoPro) it stills looks like crap even at 4k.

That said, I fully expect (ironic) there to be a ~s35 (m43) 4k baked cameras all over NAB. I think 4k/Raw cameras at $3k will be announced, but I doubt they'll be delivered in a decent time period (unless it's from Canon or Panny or something who is established and doesn't announce until they're essentially ready to release).

But, no, I haven't heard anything and this is all speculation. To be fair though, no one had really heard/expected the BMCC until the show last year...

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Thanks Mike.

I knew that bmd was looking at a camera years ago. One of my friends designed cinema cameras and was looking to work with them and bring me on. The 2.5k chip is nice, but puzzling, as 4k is the future. I was hoping they would have a beefier 4k this year.

I have just found a $3k 4k s35mm camera due late march. I'm not mentioning the name kin.dly. It will be interesting to see what happens, I do not expect it to stack up to the Scarlet, but against the BMCC. The big problem for Scarlet is that you need to spend a bit to shoot with it, so the price goes up. A dragon turn and burn scarlet with on camera adjustable click auto saturated color data track to reduce post time, at $7k would be great, at $5k would bust these guys. I was tempted to buy one of those Red One refurbs because they were more self contained, except they would not do 50p, and I did not want a complex end of run orphan requiring $6k boards for faults.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

I forgot about the gopro Mike. Lens is also a big factor. At a wedding I was stuck with a shaky little cheap camera on the performance level of a gopro, but bigger lens. With tremor in my hands I put face tracking on and tried to select a scene mode with shallow dof and activated stabilisation (or so I thought), pulled a slight optical zoom for closer shots to reduce warping of the face from the small lens. The results were predictable, but was able to get the dof down around the subjects. The SanyoHD2000 is probably worth a look at to see what can be done with a sensor around the gopro size. I understand the sensor is larger but the video mode windows down the size to an unknown size. Another camera I did not buy because it did not have p50.modes (works best with the lighting here). The 1/2.5 sensor size is close to 8mm, so you should get similar results.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

There were a few UHD camcorder products shown at CES with release dates of "sometime later this year or next year". I think part of the hold up here is that camcorders are not what people want right now. Sales of camcorders are in the toilet. People just want to shoot with their smart phones, tablets, etc.. Or they're looking for prosumer gear with good optics and great quality. The $400~$900 camcorder is a dead market at the moment.

DSLRs are hot, of course. I would be looking there first. I know of one product coming, but I'm not allowed to say anything. Don't hold your breath, it's probably a next-year thing.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

There's an 8k camera:
http://www.nokia.com/global/products/phone/808pureview/

But it only outputs 1080p heavily compressed.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I'm betting that iPhone 7 will shoot UHD video. Probably the Galaxy S5 as well... Probably a toss-up at this point as to which one may come first. All I know is that the video quality of these phones is getting insanely good. If they could just improve their buffering for readouts to move to a global shutter or scan at < 2.5ms, to eliminate the shutter skew, that would be awesome. Honestly, the only reason I'd want a camcorder is so I could have a zoom lens. But I'd rather just have a good DSLR these days. My GH2 goes almost everywhere with me and I usually have a GoPro Hero3 on me as well. If I can take something bigger, I grab the RED or my D800. I have a D3X as well, but it only shoots long-exposure and timelapse stuff and I think I've about wore out the shutter. Still going though, it's been an awesome camera.

 

[Kevin Marshall]

Also, the black magic doesn't have any in-camera compression, so you're left with massive files that ultimately have to be compressed -- just like you said -- leaving it more susceptible to artifacting/aliasing.

Small quibble - the Blackmagic does have in-camera compression, both ProRes and DNxHD. The aliasing also is due to a lack of OLPF, not due to any compression (or lack thereof).

 

[Chase J. Carnahan]

The in-camera compression is ultimately destructive compression (i.e. to ProRes or DNxHD), not a raw compression. That's what I was getting at.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

There were a few UHD camcorder products shown at CES with release dates of "sometime later this year or next year". I think part of the hold up here is that camcorders are not what people want right now. Sales of camcorders are in the toilet. People just want to shoot with their smart phones, tablets, etc.. Or they're looking for prosumer gear with good optics and great quality. The $400~$900 camcorder is a dead market at the moment.

DSLRs are hot, of course. I would be looking there first. I know of one product coming, but I'm not allowed to say anything. Don't hold your breath, it's probably a next-year thing.

Jeff, do you mean the 4k gh, or did you mean the gopro one?

On using phones, I got my phone out to shout something and put it straight back in my pocket, and got a little old mini pocket camcorder out that walked over it in most ways. Unless you have a pure view, there is,marketable advantage in camcorders, but they have to market it so the public knows, even just on the box. They then can trump it with more advanced performance. It is much easier to get good h264 ultrahd into a camcorder than a phone just because the camcorder has the size for the battery and high energy circuits. Even then sales are not going to be like before. But the reality is they have waited so long mobile phones could now do 4k, even if poorly.

I think one of the big things companies need to learn is to make it as easy as a phone but better, with novice intermediate and advanced modes, like Sanyo used too. I actually put forward that idea when I was working on the hybrid pocket camera market, to get around the trend to dumb and dumberer camera controls. Together with the other suggestions and the fact it is easier to hold still, they then have as something marketable to get some sales.

Thanks again Jeff, we can depend on you to bring something new.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

There's an 8k camera:
http://www.nokia.com/global/products/phone/808pureview/

But it only outputs 1080p heavily compressed.

A friend just ordered one after I told him about it last year, for night time street filming. Unfortunately he texted me while I was away busy and ordered it before I could get back to fill him in on other non phone options.

Would you know the bit rate at fullhd Gavin? I'm guessing it is probably as good as the pen mini 4/3rds he could have got for less, which would have been a better all rounder (I'm guessing they both need lights in dark street corners).

.

That being said, the only mediums right now that are even capable of displaying 4k are super expensive TV's and movie theaters...but maybe that will all change in the next few years.

edit: comma placement

Chase, there was a $2495 westinghouse ultrahd tv announced at CES. It doesn't matter too much, we can watch it on 4k next year.