Any owners of the chinese tungsten fresnels that can help with some questions please?

[Blake Gibson]

Hi guys,

First time posting here. I'm in the market for some of those Came-TV Replica Arri chinese tungsten fresnels. But I just was hoping to find someone with experience in these lights first as I can't find the answer on Google and I tried emailing Came-TV and they didn't respond.

I'm an amatuer filmmaking and will only use these every other month in personal projects as needed. I mainly use smaller LED's so these won't get a lot of use. I would love to get the proper Arri ones but I can't justify the cost at the moment as I wont be making money off them or using them enough. Maybe later down the track when I get better and make money I will upgrade.

Down lamping:

I was hoping to get 3 of them altogether: 2x 650w and 1x2000w units and just downlamp the 650w's to 300w, and the 2k to 1k as needed as opposed to getting dimmers because of the colour temp shift. I will be using wire mesh/scrim and ND to fine tune as well, but the downlamping is also needed due to power draw concerns at various locations. So, are the bulbs interchangeable with the genuine Arri bulbs ? Are they a standardised type bulb? Are there any glaring issues that might come up that a newbie like me might be missing in regards to doing this?

Accessories, especially scrims:

I've read that the accessories are all interchangeable with the Arri lights, except the scrims. Snoots I can make with cinefoil, the barn doors are supposed to be solid, the fresnel lenses i've heard can take the genuine Arri ones (as I heard the chinese ones can break easily), hopefully the bulbs are interchangeable.

So the question is mainly for scrims, and I guess this isn't a question specific to this light... but: can you not just get some wire mesh scrim and peg it to the barn doors the same way you would do with gels etc? I would imagine the reason the scrim on the Arri's is a frame that sits away from the barn doors where the gels would go is because you can't stack mesh and gels as the mesh would heat up and melt the gels. In which case I could just get some wire mesh scrim and cut it to shape to fit the filter holder. Again, any glaring issues with this?


Thanks guys

 

[Robert Hart]

I can't speak for CAME lamps. The 650watt and 2K lamps vended by Steven Studio, I can.

Like all things you basically get what you pay. They are not ARRI, so don't expect the same performance in arduous environments as you would get from ARRI.

The 650 watt lamps perform well enough such that you might not see the difference fromgenuine ARRI.

You will crack fresnel glasses if you flood with the globe too close to the glass.

Fitment of the globes into their holders is an awkward business. There is a top hatch which you must crudely squeeze and pull to open it. The access through this hatch is confined. Releasing the first blown globes from their bases is difficult. You need to be able to prise both leaf-spring retainers apart to allow the globe to be withdrawn. It gets easier as the heat from the globes de-tempers the metal and eventuaky pressure from fingertps is enough to wedge the retainers open.

The travelling carriage for the lamp base is very basic. There are no special bearing surfaces except holes punched in sheetmetal. This is functionally adequate but may start squealing over time. The internal rails for the carriage are round bar. A third round bar is macined with a coarse round-bottomed helicoid. There is a ball-bearing in a fixed position inside a hollow sleeve around the actuator rod as a wear-resistant follower. It has not happened to me but another user of a similar chinese lamp type reported that it dropped out and disabled the carriage transport.

The cabling on the Steven Studio versions is adequate on my specimens. The heat shroud material on the wiring inside the lamphouse appears adequate.

The in-line switch is NOT weatherproof. Neither is the lamphouse.

The plug on the end of the cable will be for Chinese domestic power in a flat pin pattern similar to Australian household plugs. This will need to be replaced by your own standard. My specimens are earth wired to the lamphouse. Make sure yours have an earth connection. The lamphouse are not double-insulated.

The lamhouse srews have a tendency to work loose due to thermal cycling so you need to check and tighten as necessary. That is also best practice with genuine ARRIs.


On the 2K the carriage transport consists of two round rails. One has a helicoid machined into it and it does double-duty as the spot-flood adustment.

The plastic knobs on my specimen failed fairly quickly from heat. In both cases this was from the lamp being tilted in upwards and downwards directions. You may find that domestic stove knobs will fit as replacements. My replacements knobs came from streetside "roadkill" as you guys define verge collections. The knobs are not shaped with hollows and crosspins for adjustment with a slotted stick, so you will need a ladder to adjust them in high placements.

The cable is adequate and of apparent durable quality and thckness. The power switch is of similar style to the 650watt lamps. In my specimen, the cable was a little too thick for easy factpry assembly and a pair of screws were found to have stripped the plastic case material when it was found to have sprung apart slightly.

The plug will need to be changed to suit your electrical standards and you will need to check if your cable included an earth connection to the lamphouse.

The 2K has a front-opening door. Lamp life appears to be about that of the genuine ARRI so lamphouse venting seems to be adequate. So far, the fresnel has not cracked or chipped.


The internal black finish on both lamp types appears to be an industrial powder coating. This burns off and stinks to high heaven until it has been consumed.

On the 2K, the attachment for the safety lanyard is a flimsy piece punched out of shiny sheetmetal and is secured with a tiny screw. For overhead placement, I would replace this entirely with something more robust.


The lightweight lamp stands you will get from China are really too fragile for longterm use. They need to be BABIED. The clamp thumb-screws will be overtightened by Tarzans on your crew. The floating clamp pieces inside will bend and fall inside, then the bare ends of the clamp thumbscrews will crush the very thin metal tubes. They can be fixed but it becomes tiresome.

The available stand for the 2K and 1.2K HMI is of sterner stuff and robust. The casting is a bit rough here and there and the spigot hole on my specimen is an unfinished tapered casting core hole which has not been machined to cylindrical. The spigot will fit in but will not pivot unless you add a second bolt across the holt to stop the spigot from going deep. There are two threaded holes, so it is simply a matter of adding a bolt to the lower one.

The stands you buy separately.


I published some unauthorised handling notes on the Steven Studion lamps over on dvinfonet in the "photon management" threads.

 

[David W. Jones]

My advice take it or leave it...... Avoid those Chinese made knockoffs and just keep an eye open on places like ebay for used Tungsten lighting from manufactures like Mole Richardson. The majority of my 40+ Tungsten lights were purchased used at substantial savings. You can probably find even better deals on Strand and Colortran.

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

Agree, I had a chance to use these recently and they fall apart. Every screw will fall out with normal use. Get old beat up arri or mole lights. They will work and they will last. My first light kit looked like it went through a war, I bought it used, but it was arri and it still works great.

 

[Christopher Mills]

I have not been happy with the copy imports for several reasons.

1)They are fragile. They hardware strips easily, and the fresnels are thinner and weaker than Mole, Arri, etc.

2) the reflectors are much less efficient than Arri. Arri's are the best shape/reflectivity, and thus highest footcandle output.
They are less durable than Mole (corrosion/tarnish, which further impairs output)

3) the adjustments are sloppy. they carriages don't stay where you set them

4) there is no comparison on aftermarket support. the established makers have deep parts inventory, and are great about getting them to you.

5)They are less safe. They are absolutely more likely to be poorly grounded. Which can kill you.

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

Number 5 is very true

 

[Blake Gibson]

Wow thanks for the replies guys. A great amount of info there which will assist me to make an informed decision.

So what do you guys think about the down lamping scenario I proposed? Possible? Any glaring issues that might arise that I need to look out for?

Thanks.

You will crack fresnel glasses if you flood with the globe too close to the glass.

Robert, thank you for the detailed reply! This will prove very useful.

Is this because the glass expands more the closer the bulb gets? I read somewhere that the issue is because the glass expands further than the holder/mount for the glass allows and loosening this holder helps.

The plug on the end of the cable will be for Chinese domestic power in a flat pin pattern similar to Australian household plugs. This will need to be replaced by your own standard. My specimens are earth wired to the lamphouse. Make sure yours have an earth connection. The lamphouse are not double-insulated.

I've read the 650w and up have earth. Under 650w does not apparently.

I published some unauthorised handling notes on the Steven Studion lamps over on dvinfonet in the "photon management" threads.

Great, do you think you could post a link? I'll have a look for it.

My advice take it or leave it...... Avoid those Chinese made knockoffs and just keep an eye open on places like ebay for used Tungsten lighting from manufactures like Mole Richardson. The majority of my 40+ Tungsten lights were purchased used at substantial savings. You can probably find even better deals on Strand and Colortran.

Thanks David. An interesting alternative: Instead of getting 2x 650w and 1x 2000w chinese fresnels I could to spend more and get 2nd hand: 1x 650w and 1x 2000w genuine Arri, and get the over 650w later on.

I'm not sure if it's going to be possible ATM though, being in Australia makes everything harder and more expensive.

Any idea on a ballpark figure of a decent price for the arri 650w and 2k 2nd hand?

Agree, I had a chance to use these recently and they fall apart. Every screw will fall out with normal use. Get old beat up arri or mole lights. They will work and they will last. My first light kit looked like it went through a war, I bought it used, but it was arri and it still works great.

Thanks Jake. Are there any other brands you could recommend besides Arri and Mole? I had a quick, unsuccessful, look on ebay for some Arri's. I guess it depends on the cost at the moment.

I have not been happy with the copy imports for several reasons.

1)They are fragile. They hardware strips easily, and the fresnels are thinner and weaker than Mole, Arri, etc.

2) the reflectors are much less efficient than Arri. Arri's are the best shape/reflectivity, and thus highest footcandle output.
They are less durable than Mole (corrosion/tarnish, which further impairs output)

3) the adjustments are sloppy. they carriages don't stay where you set them

4) there is no comparison on aftermarket support. the established makers have deep parts inventory, and are great about getting them to you.

5)They are less safe. They are absolutely more likely to be poorly grounded. Which can kill you.

Thanks Christopher. Some good points there. 5 is very important as well.

 

[Robert Hart]

Used reputable brands can be good. However you still need to have them checked before you turn them loose and affirtively committ to maintenance. There's no hung jury on which of poor workmanship or poor maintenance kills you more.

 

[Robert Hart]

Here's my unauthorised handling notes for the Steven Studio lamps.

Please be aware that I amneither a lighting expert nor licenced electrician. I strongly recommend that whatever light you buy, be it used or new and especially if it is sourced from offshore, that a lighting electrician is tasked with checking for any bads like live conductors shorting to the metal parts and if the earth is adequate.


http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/photon-management/471001-steven-studio-650-watt-fresnel-lights.html

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/photon-...alogen-light-unauthorised-handling-notes.html

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/photon-management/466731-steven-studio-hmi-1-2k-fresnel-light.html

 

[Gene Sung]

Hi have the Cool Lights 650w for about 3 years and it's worked really well. The price is right in the middle of an official Arri version and the Chinese knock offs. I own several Fluorescents from Cool Lights which have also held up and worked really well.

Basically, the construction is not as good as Arri, but is better than the Chinese knock offs. Cool Lights does have good customer support which is something you won't get from the Chinese knock offs and might be a good mid-ground between quality and super cheap Chinese stuff.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

If you are set on tungsten, I agree with others and suggest looking for previously owned brand name units. The move is generally away from tungsten to more efficient lights so these can be found pretty cheaply.

Gene mentioned the Coollights above. Richard Andrewski from Coollights used to hang out here a lot but has been absent for some time. I sort of get the idea that his business interests have turned elsewhere. He does, however, still have the web site with some tungsten units and HMI-type lights available but many seem to be "out of stock." I also agree with Gene that they are a bit better value than some of the other Chinese products but nowhere near as well built as the high end "brand names." I have had 3 of his CDM (HMI-like) units for several years and they have performed pretty well although I did have one ballast issue.

FWIW - I do think the Chinese manufacturers are learning and the build quality of a lot of products is getting better. It just may not be there yet.

 

[Blake Gibson]

Thanks for the responses guys! Can anyone comment on the down lamping at all? This is my main concern/question.

Here's my unauthorised handling notes for the Steven Studio lamps.

Please be aware that I amneither a lighting expert nor licenced electrician. I strongly recommend that whatever light you buy, be it used or new and especially if it is sourced from offshore, that a lighting electrician is tasked with checking for any bads like live conductors shorting to the metal parts and if the earth is adequate.


http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/photon-management/471001-steven-studio-650-watt-fresnel-lights.html

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/photon-...alogen-light-unauthorised-handling-notes.html

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/photon-management/466731-steven-studio-hmi-1-2k-fresnel-light.html

Thanks Robert. Good reads there, good tips, reminders and lots I didn't know. I have also booked marked them for future reference as well.

Can I ask, have you tried down lamping them at all? Is there any reason why it shouldn't work?

I saw in one of the threads you mentioned you got better light stands and C-stands. Can I ask where you got them from? I'm in the market for a c-stand and some better light stands and being in Australia (as you know) make's it difficult and expensive.

Hi have the Cool Lights 650w for about 3 years and it's worked really well. The price is right in the middle of an official Arri version and the Chinese knock offs. I own several Fluorescents from Cool Lights which have also held up and worked really well.

Basically, the construction is not as good as Arri, but is better than the Chinese knock offs. Cool Lights does have good customer support which is something you won't get from the Chinese knock offs and might be a good mid-ground between quality and super cheap Chinese stuff.

I also noticed what Terry said below about all the Cool Lights ones being out of stock. Also, they're in America. I'm in Australia

Open to suggestions on other middle of the road lights though. I really want some fresnels because up until now I've really only used open face lights and I don't really like them.

If you are set on tungsten, I agree with others and suggest looking for previously owned brand name units. The move is generally away from tungsten to more efficient lights so these can be found pretty cheaply.

Well, I'm set on fresnel I think. And I want something relatively powerful (2k), and other weaker ones to muck around with. I can't really afford more efficient lights I don't think. Say, something like the Aputure LS1s which is equivalent to a 1K tungsten is around $800 which isn't really feasible for me at the moment.

I was looking into the 100w large type LED lights not too long ago like the Dotline cool LED but they have issues so I figured I'd wait it out with a set of cheap all rounder lights like some fresnels.

 

[David W. Jones]

You state that you have only used open face lights and you don't like them.

Have you tried to stylize the light using modifiers like a silk to diffuse the light, or a bounce to give a softer look?

A bunch of folks that have had experience with these Chinese Fresnel lights have advised you against them. But it looks as if you are dead set on them as long as you can down lamp them, and that is your choice for sure. But you have been informed.

So the answer is yes you can down lamp them to a lesser wattage lamp of the same style base.

I'm out.

All the best!

Dave

 

[Ulf Krentz]

David, fresnels have their own specific light fall off and light quality. I can definitely understand to have them in the tool box. If those chinese fresnels have a poor glass and mirror though I would be careful alone from this. Regarding downlamping you should be able to use a smaller bulb if they have the same base. But also make sure the adjustment of the filament into the focus of the mirror is correct otherwise you will have "two spots". Please don´t forget to change the fuse accordingly as it is part of the safety against bursting. One other thing to consider: Fresnels by far don´t put out as much light as an open face so probably there will be no need to downgrade? I´d also advice to get some used stuff instead of the knock offs.

Cheers

Ulf

 

[David W. Jones]

David, fresnels have their own specific light fall off and light quality. I can definitely understand to have them in the tool box.

Ulf

I understand, I have 20 Fresnels in my light kit.

Just didn't know if there was a particular reason the OP didn't like open face lights, which could be a valuable asset in a light kit.

:smiley:

 

[Ulf Krentz]

I understand, I have 20 Fresnels in my light kit.

Just didn't know if there was a particular reason the OP didn't like open face lights, which could be a valuable asset in a light kit.

:smiley:

Sorry, I have been reading too fast, makes sense. Fresnels and PARs are my favorite sources.

 

[Blake Gibson]

You state that you have only used open face lights and you don't like them.

Have you tried to stylize the light using modifiers like a silk to diffuse the light, or a bounce to give a softer look?

Thanks David. Yep I've tried them with modifiers but they never seem to go where I want them to. Specifically I've used 300w and 800w redheads, and an arrilite 2000w that I borrowed from Uni.

From what I've seen of Fresnels, I really like the quality of the light.

A bunch of folks that have had experience with these Chinese Fresnel lights have advised you against them. But it looks as if you are dead set on them as long as you can down lamp them, and that is your choice for sure. But you have been informed.

I've also seen/read some people that use them and like them too.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to get genuine Arri 2nd hand units but it's just not feasible at the moment. I live in Australia which makes everything harder and more expensive to get. Add to that I don't know where I would even find some second hand (I'm going to start searching for good 2nd hand markets in Australia), I checked ebay and all I found was a 6K HMI. So I would be waiting for who knows how long, assuming they would even come up.

A new 650w genuine Arri unit is around $440 USD (bhp) brand new which equates to $580 AUD, I saw some online in Aus for $680 from retailers. If 2nd hand units can be had for 1/2 the price of new units (or around double that of the chinese units), I would much prefer to get 2nd hand genuine. I don't even know what they are worth second hand.

If I was to magically find a 650w for $300 and a 2k for $500 it would be a no brainer. Again, I have no idea what they are even worth second hand.

The other thing to take into account is the frequency I would be using them. I'm an amateur filmmaker and apart from a music video shoot with a friend this year, I have no other plans on using them at all on actual projects. So spending big money on something I maybe will use once a year or less doesn't really make sense to me.

I've thought of renting as needed. But actually, part of me wants to buy some "practice" and to build confidence in myself so I can rent bigger and better lights later on. Apart from the 2K arri I used for 5 minutes, I've only ever used 300w and 800w redheads (very very very inexperienced), and I would not be confident in renting something larger as needed for a project, say a 1.2k HMI or larger. At least with a 2K I would be getting something relatively larger and powerful I can play around with and see how larger lights work and what it's like lighting with them.

Most of the time the stuff I make is small scale and we use small LEDs to light, or sometimes just natural light. My largest light is the Aputure 672s light which is equivalent to a 400 or 500w tungsten IIRC.

So the answer is yes you can down lamp them to a lesser wattage lamp of the same style base.

I'm out.

Dave

Thanks Dave for that. I really appreciate your input. I feel bad now haha.

David, fresnels have their own specific light fall off and light quality. I can definitely understand to have them in the tool box. If those chinese fresnels have a poor glass and mirror though I would be careful alone from this. Regarding downlamping you should be able to use a smaller bulb if they have the same base. But also make sure the adjustment of the filament into the focus of the mirror is correct otherwise you will have "two spots". Please don´t forget to change the fuse accordingly as it is part of the safety against bursting. One other thing to consider: Fresnels by far don´t put out as much light as an open face so probably there will be no need to downgrade? I´d also advice to get some used stuff instead of the knock offs.

Cheers

Ulf

Thanks Ulf. You mean cange the fuse when down lamping? Or "up laming"? I wont be up lamping at all, just taking the 650w down to 300w and the 2k down to 1k (if that one is even possible)

See above regarding second hand.

What would the equivalent for a 2k fresnel be in terms of redheads? I didn't think it would be that big a difference. Plus most of the time I will probably need to full CTB gel as well. How much would all that knock it down?

I understand, I have 20 Fresnels in my light kit.

Just didn't know if there was a particular reason the OP didn't like open face lights, which could be a valuable asset in a light kit.

:smiley:

To be honest, I probably don't like them because I don't know how to use them. It's easy to blame your tools but really it falls on the person using them. A close friend of mine has a set of 3x 800w redheads that I can access at any time if need be as well (i believe he has 300w and 500w bulbs as well). So if I need them they are there.

 

[David W. Jones]

FWIW I just saw Strand 1K Fresnel for $75.00 and a Strand 2K Fresnel for $120, a Mini Mole for $95 on eBay, as an example.

 

[Blake Gibson]

FWIW I just saw Strand 1K Fresnel for $75.00 and a Strand 2K Fresnel for $120, a Mini Mole for $95 on eBay, as an example.

Any more brands you could recommend so I can keep up the search for good 2nd hand units?

Mole, Arri, Strand...

Regarding those actual units, 2k for $120! I'd get it straight away if only they were in Australia Putting aside very high shipping costs, we use a different voltage here and 50hz

Also, I looked for both of those strand lights out of interest and couldn't find them on ebay. I saw the mini mole though.

Last night I looked through ebay searching only for "fresnel" in Australia and didn't find much at all apart from a few 2nd hand HMI

 

[Ulf Krentz]

Thanks Ulf. You mean cange the fuse when down lamping? Or "up laming"? I wont be up lamping at all, just taking the 650w down to 300w and the 2k down to 1k (if that one is even possible)

See above regarding second hand.

What would the equivalent for a 2k fresnel be in terms of redheads? I didn't think it would be that big a difference. Plus most of the time I will probably need to full CTB gel as well. How much would all that knock it down?

Blake, Yes every tungsten bulb should be fused with their appropriate fuse, so ideally you would use a smaller fuse for 300W (e.g. 2A for 300w and 3.15A for 650W @240Volts)
Regarding the light output it depends on the reflector design and surface, hard to say x wattage its the same output as y Wattage. I general fresnels are less efficient because they only use the light that is hitting the fresnel lens plus the counterpart that is hitting the mirror (and is reflected back to the filament and thus towards the fresnel lens), all the other part is lost in the dark inner housing. I´d think it is safe to say at least 1 stop. You might ask local rental places, they often sell used equipment, too. Good luck!

Cheers

Ulf