Any more PC equality in RED workflow?

[Keith Nealy]

I am holding off decisions on my camera and some new workflow computers based on what I hear at NAB.

My studio has always been PC based and I hear some good things about Cineform, but is RED still Apple centric or have PC's finally reached an equality with the Mac platform?

for instance:

1. Since RED Alert will only run on Mac, Can REDcine do everything needed on a PC?
2. Is RED offering a RED codec solution for PC apps?
3. If RED is offering a RED codec solution for PC apps - When?
4. Will more third party apps be written for Mac than PC?

Thanks for all of your help. I got a lot of info from Mike Curtis' site cause he asked a lot of questions and took good notes. I'm hoping some of you will ask these questions for me.

Mahalo and aloha,

Keith

 

[Lexicon]

Unfortunately, Apple is always going to have the upper hand when it comes to software/hardware solutions because their products are made for media folk but you can certainly stay with PCs. It will be a bit of time before PCs can catch up to what Apple seems to have in store for RED owners though I suspect if you are patient, you will be happy.

 

[laguun]

Unfortunately, Apple is always going to have the upper hand when it comes to software/hardware solutions because their products are made for media folk but you can certainly stay with PCs. It will be a bit of time before PCs can catch up to what Apple seems to have in store for RED owners though I suspect if you are patient, you will be happy.

i disagree. apple builts only pcs, they are good, but nothing different from other pcs. There are no 16 core apple pcs, no skulltrail pcs from apple etc.

native 4K online and finishing are not available under OSX.

The most powerful native redcode raw supporting system allowed to sell, scratch, is windows.

Once red allows iridas to to deliver their redcode system, speedgrade xr will run under windows and osx, but is missing hd-sdi under osx.

for 4K di, there is almost no system on osx, besides speedgrade. discreet lustre, dvs clipster, quantels q-generation, matrix chrome, to name a few, are all under windows, some other under linux.

its reds missing windows component who lock out most of the tools for post right now, in fact for an native 4K edit & finishing you need both os, osx for the offline edit, windows for the online mastering.

 

[Clint Johnson]

What Apple has the upper hand in is marketing and PR spin. They make nice middle of the line hardware and easy to use middle of the line software... and spin their image to be what the cool kids play with. There is no more image conscious industry than the media industry and a lot of the up and coming editors will lemming themselves after Apple as long as the Steve Jobs Reality Distortion Field (tm) keeps working.

What Apple does have right now is better integration with R3D files. I only hope that Avid and Adobe smart enough that they are impatiently waiting in the wings for the SDK so they can get back in the fray.

 

[Keith Nealy]

Laguun, what do you think of the cineform solution?

 

[laguun]

Laguun, what do you think of the cineform solution?

it seems to be an excellent product imho, and i would like to see red and cineform working as close as possible. the combination of their products is a real win/win.

 

[Dylan Reeve]

Unfortunately, Apple is always going to have the upper hand when it comes to software/hardware solutions because their products are made for media folk but you can certainly stay with PCs. It will be a bit of time before PCs can catch up to what Apple seems to have in store for RED owners though I suspect if you are patient, you will be happy.

I join in the disagreement on this...

Macs are just PCs now. Same hardware (although an even more limited selection really). OS X is not inherently any better for media than Windows or Linux. Most software (excluding that actually made by Apple) is available for both Windows and OS X.

At the moment the limitations are artificial - Apple is the partner, so initial development (REDAlert) was on Apple. Assimilate worked on REDCine so it had a Windows codebase to draw on.

Once an SDK becomes available and RED's exclusive partner agreements are over there will be much wider industry support - both natively (in the case of things like Avid) and with third party integration (such as Cineform).

Right now it's pretty difficult (although no impossible) to cope with RED without having a Mac in the workflow somewhere.

 

[Prem Edpuganti]

I am holding off decisions on my camera and some new workflow computers based on what I hear at NAB.

A while ago, Jannarad asked everybody to be patient until Red releases firmware version 16, at which time Red is expected to incorporate hooks for the SDK/third parties. He also stated any code third parties develop now, may be unusable when Red releases Version 16. By that time, Red's existing contracts run out with Assimilate, Apple etc., if I remember well. So the key is release date for Version 16 which was supposed to happen by NAB time. According to Stuart, it got delayed but still on track.

For me, no affordable workflow solution means no Red, not even Scarlet. Waiting.

 

[Gopher77]

I have to agree. I have a PC network now, so if I have to go with an apple network and machines I have no money for the RED. So I have to wait.......Please hurry!

I know you guys are doing all you can!

 

[John Godden]

I am holding off decisions on my camera and some new workflow computers based on what I hear at NAB.

My studio has always been PC based and I hear some good things about Cineform, but is RED still Apple centric or have PC's finally reached an equality with the Mac platform?

for instance:

1. Since RED Alert will only run on Mac, Can REDcine do everything needed on a PC?
2. Is RED offering a RED codec solution for PC apps?
3. If RED is offering a RED codec solution for PC apps - When?
4. Will more third party apps be written for Mac than PC?

Thanks for all of your help. I got a lot of info from Mike Curtis' site cause he asked a lot of questions and took good notes. I'm hoping some of you will ask these questions for me.

Mahalo and aloha,

Keith

Once you go MAC you won't go back! :biggrin:

 

[brandon herman]

I'm worried about PC support as well.

I've used Adobe Premiere since version 1.1 and it's a great program, made better by the way it integrates with After Effects, Photoshop, etc...

Those PC vs. Mac commercials are cute, but they don't mean anything. Yes, most Macs are aimed at media professionals, but there are many PCs from many vendors (at competitive prices) making Windows based systems for editing, graphics, 3D, etc.... It's a smaller percentage, but probably a similar number.

There should be no reason I couldn't edit in (Windows) Premiere CS3, then open the project in After Effects for a really nice finish.

<fingers crossed>

 

[Dylan Reeve]

Once you go MAC you won't go back! :biggrin:

So they say, but I've been using Macs on and off for video work for the last 10 years, and I'm far from addicted. I find the Windows UI better and more usable. Application support in Windows is better. And I'd choose Avid over FCP for editing pretty much any day of the week.

But we have an Octo-Mac, and I use it... So maybe I am yet to be won over.

 

[NormLi]

Mac Vs. PC

Mac Vs. PC

I might as well post these now since we're talking about it.

www.lauriemcguinness.com

I shot these a while back on an HVX but they have gained a lot of attention you Youtube...the pc vs. mac thing is always so controversial

This pokes fun at it.

N

 

[Ed Blythe]

Nattress prefers to code for mac so they've got a slight head start.

SDK = all bets are off. I'm sure everybody is keen to get on the boat.

Agree that the Cineform stuff is absolutely stellar. They've got some great tricks up their sleeve. Hope Red jumps into co-operating with them and vice versa.

 

[yhalmarri]

Hello,
I am attending NAB and I was at the Red booth today to talk about work flow on a PC. We use a both Mac and PC, so since Final Cut is sorted, I asked about PCs.
You basically have to render your files out to any editor you want, which means you lose the ability to go back to your original footage and do RAW corrections without re-rendering. Also, as far as I can tell, Scratch is the only out for 4K footage.

On another note, they announced a new feature that will be incorporated into Final Cut at the show, they will be adding a new "log and capture" sometime in the near future. It basically lets you log your footage, add comments, trim footage and add preset looks that you have saved in RedAlert.

If you guys want to see photos of the new Red cameras (I'm sure you've all searched for them and have already seen them) then I have some on my company blog, the link is in my signature...

As for the Mac vs PC debate, I use PCs and I find them much more flexible. I built my own workstation and it is very stable. We had a graphics card die on us in one of the Macs, and me thinking it was a simple thing to fix, went out an bought some random Nvidia card. Turns out they have special Mac ones that we had to wait two weeks for...
Let's get one thing straight: Computers crash. You use the tools you prefer to get the job you want done.

I hate Macs...

:-D

 

[Dylan Reeve]

The big limitation on PC at the moment is the lack of QT codec for Windows. Once that's released things get a lot easier.

For example on our Mac I can import RED proxy files into Avid with no huge difficulty at all. Treating it as an offline/online workflow (as you have to do in FCP also). This is possible because RED media is accessible directly via a QT wrapper in OS X. The same will be possible when that is the case for Windows also. Hopefully not too far away.

 

[Adam Glick]

The big limitation on PC at the moment is the lack of QT codec for Windows. Once that's released things get a lot easier.

For example on our Mac I can import RED proxy files into Avid with no huge difficulty at all. Treating it as an offline/online workflow (as you have to do in FCP also). This is possible because RED media is accessible directly via a QT wrapper in OS X. The same will be possible when that is the case for Windows also. Hopefully not too far away.

That's not entirely correct. Windows PC's work perfectly with practically any QT CODEC. As far as I can tell, the only one that is not currently supported under Windows is Apple "ProRES".

Other than that, PCs and Macs support QT equally well.

If you need to generate full quality 2K or HD realtime "ProRes" QT from your RED footage, the only way to do it is to play out of a Windows PC (redBOXX will do it) and capture the HD-SDI stream onto your MAC.

If you want to generate Apple ProRES and don't have one of the new Windows machines (and Scratch Cine or Scratch), you will need to wait for a time-consuming transcode... I believe i've heard render times of between 10:1 and 20:1......................................................................................


Adam
BOXXlabs

 

[Dj Joofa]

Some are more equal

Some are more equal

Other than that, PCs and Macs support QT equally well.

My understanding is that key protions of Quicktime Media Layer (QTML) / Quicktime are serialized on Windows, where as on Mac they are multi-threaded.

 

[Dylan Reeve]

That's not entirely correct. Windows PC's work perfectly with practically any QT CODEC. As far as I can tell, the only one that is not currently supported under Windows is Apple "ProRES".

Other than that, PCs and Macs support QT equally well.

What I mean is the RED QT Codec (more accurately a Component I believe) - without it Windows apps have no means to directly access to RED media. So what I can achieve with Avid in OS X (a simple import) would be equally possible in Windows once RED releases their QT component for Windows.

Once that is available in Windows there will be immediately existing workflows with apps that support Quicktime media (at the very least I know Avid will work with it, with standard import transcoding).

 

[Adam Glick]

Editing directly with RED RAW (.r3d) media generated by the camera will always be very limited as it is now in FCP/OSX because .r3d is not a "CODEC". You can't encode .r3d using a computer, which means that even simple dissolves, wipes or a PIP simply can't be played in your NLE's timeline.

You can do basic cuts-only off-line stuff but until the .r3d footage is converted (or transcoded) into some type of standard file format/CODEC , there can be no "online" editorial or FX work performed with the footage. I don't expect this to change once the .r3d format is opened up to 3rd parties.

In this aspect, Windows and MAC are both on a pretty level playing field. Once the .r3d media is ocnverted into the file "flavor" of choice, both platforms provide great options for posting your project.

Somebody please correct me if i'm wrong...


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