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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Announcing WEAPON DRAGON 6k Magnesium

Jarred Land said:
There are new OLPFs as well for Weapon optically matching but the carriers are smart that will automatically tell the Weapon what OLPF is inside it so you don't need to manually switch when you change filters.
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LOVE the sound of that! Much better for the rental crowd.
 
In a weird way I'm kind of relieved,
only half a stop extra low light, ok there's DNR news to come but I can't imagine it being a huge amount better.

I'd rather it be too expensive and not that huge a leap than the other way round, I'm done spending money for a bit.
 
Yup.

Pricing is starting to compete with Arri...which takes a lot of us out of the game. Oh well, its been a fun ride and Dragon is worth a hell of a lot more than what I'm being told. Will continue to shoot on it and make beautiful images.



David Ellison said:
In a weird way I'm kind of relieved,
only half a stop extra low light, ok there's DNR news to come but I can't imagine it being a huge amount better.

I'd rather it be too expensive and not that huge a leap than the other way round, I'm done spending money for a bit.
Click to expand...
 
Ivan Cortazar said:
Same here. I've been with red since early RED ONE. But at this point I can't justify $20,000 plus for this upgrade. Plus another amount later next year for next sensor, 8K?
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8K sensor is $10K if you buy now (pre-paid in full). It's $20K if you wait until later (ouch).

I suppose everyone needs to take a deep breath and study the upgrade packages for what they are. It may or may not be worth it or make sense in all cases. But keep in mind that for the cost of the new brain alone, the upgrade packages are including $2K+ worth of extra accessories. Then you get your trade-in allowance when you send in your current brain + an additional $5K accessories credit when you reserve your upgrade during NAB.

So, if you currently have an EPIC-X Dragon to trade, then it works out like this: $34,500 for the magnesium upgrade package - less your $15,500 - less $5K accessories credit since you'll need new stuff anyway. So that's $19K and if you figure the base module, lemo adapter and top handle with the bundle, that makes a difference too. You would have to sell your current EPIC brain for over $22K to do better and you would still need to reserve your Weapon now, during NAB, to get the $5K accessories credit. Selling an EPIC-X Dragon now for $22K+, that's a stretch considering they're $27.5K new with the Ti PL mount right now with full warranty. And for most of us who have to pay taxes on the purchase, the trade-in offsets the final purchase price and gives us a bit more savings there too.

The more I look at this and play with all the numbers, I have to say that the deal is pretty amazing. What sucks is that the timing to get the most out of it all is not going to work for everyone. There is also a big difference in perception, depending on how long you have owned EPIC and the Dragon upgrade. For those of us who have had EPIC since early 2011 and have had Dragon since the beginning -- a bit over a year now -- this upgrade is a no-brainer. For those who have only recently bought into EPIC and/or Dragon, it can be a big pill to swallow.

I know I'll be criticized for saying this, but I have a feeling that other cameras have been getting cheaper and cheaper, and Red has become more and more expensive. That being said, I'm still grateful for all the trade in credits we've benefited in the past years.
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RED cameras are creeping upwards in price, but they're also increasing in capability as well and evolving a lot more rapidly than the competition. That said, they're still cameras and no one camera is right for every job or every person. While they are getting more expensive compared to some of the previous offerings, they are still a far better value than what Sony and Arri are offering. OTOH, 4K cameras are everywhere these days and some are very cheap. So an EPIC Dragon or Weapon is a lot of camera to buy into if the need is to just acquire acceptable 4K imagery.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
So, if you currently have an EPIC-X Dragon to trade, then it works out like this: $34,500 for the magnesium upgrade package - less your $15,500 - less $5K accessories credit since you'll need new stuff anyway.
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Are you sure this is the case? On the first post of this thread it looks like there's only a trade in for the CF body.

Jarred Land said:
- If you already own EPIC-X DRAGON, your trade-in credit towards WEAPON CF is $15,500 plus a $5000
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Is this a typo / cut & paste issue from the CF Upgrade announcement?
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
8K sensor is $10K if you buy now (pre-paid in full). It's $20K if you wait until later (ouch).

I suppose everyone needs to take a deep breath and study the upgrade packages for what they are. It may or may not be worth it or make sense in all cases. But keep in mind that for the cost of the new brain alone, the upgrade packages are including $2K+ worth of extra accessories. Then you get your trade-in allowance when you send in your current brain + an additional $5K accessories credit when you reserve your upgrade during NAB.

So, if you currently have an EPIC-X Dragon to trade, then it works out like this: $34,500 for the magnesium upgrade package - less your $15,500 - less $5K accessories credit since you'll need new stuff anyway. So that's $19K and if you figure the base module, lemo adapter and top handle with the bundle, that makes a difference too. You would have to sell your current EPIC brain for over $22K to do better and you would still need to reserve your Weapon now, during NAB, to get the $5K accessories credit. Selling an EPIC-X Dragon now for $22K+, that's a stretch considering they're $27.5K new with the Ti PL mount right now with full warranty. And for most of us who have to pay taxes on the purchase, the trade-in offsets the final purchase price and gives us a bit more savings there too.

The more I look at this and play with all the numbers, I have to say that the deal is pretty amazing. What sucks is that the timing to get the most out of it all is not going to work for everyone. There is also a big difference in perception, depending on how long you have owned EPIC and the Dragon upgrade. For those of us who have had EPIC since early 2011 and have had Dragon since the beginning -- a bit over a year now -- this upgrade is a no-brainer. For those who have only recently bought into EPIC and/or Dragon, it can be a big pill to swallow.



RED cameras are creeping upwards in price, but they're also increasing in capability as well and evolving a lot more rapidly than the competition. That said, they're still cameras and no one camera is right for every job or every person. While they are getting more expensive compared to some of the previous offerings, they are still a far better value than what Sony and Arri are offering. OTOH, 4K cameras are everywhere these days and some are very cheap. So an EPIC Dragon or Weapon is a lot of camera to buy into if the need is to just acquire acceptable 4K imagery.
Click to expand...

I think if there were more time than the week of NAB to get half of this stuff, just feels like RED knows only the top guys can buy this new elite camera and everyone else who could save up for it won't be given the time to do that and by the time they have will have to pay double for a new sensor... all because they aren't loaded right now.

Fair to the guys with money... sucks to be a guy who doesn't.
 
Arthur to my knowledge this is the case - but what I want to know is if in the future when Vista is available if a magnesium to 8k upgrade will be available as this to me makes the most sense if you don't have the extra money to dump on carbon right now and then 8K as well.

Like Jeff said, i'm in the latter I have not had my dragon for long, 5 months, but for me I always knew this was coming and I knew I was late to the dragon party.

If you have ready funds, going in now while NAB is on it works out a pretty decent saving, also thinking about how much ill get for my current accessories I wont be using - yes it wont be much but its still something it all comes together.

So when I look at my original investment (second hand MX ) and the two upgrades to have a brand new Weapon its a no brainer for me I have gone from a second hand camera to a brand new one at a discounted cost with money spread over time and also the camera has helped me earn the money to make that possible.
Also, if I decide I am unhappy, 90 days after I recieve it I can sell it on - if I cant make the equivalent money of the depreciation that the 90 days will take, then I shouldn't be spending so much money on cameras.

The only thing that I am disappointed in is that I didn't have the necessary information to make an educated decision of magnesium over carbon etc. whilst still wanting to be ahead of the line, in the end it came down to money, the carbon was just too much.

Im looking forward to the full specs, and also to see what they can squeeze out of the new hardware in weapon, its still early days, where as the hardware in epic has been in R&D for a long time.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
You would have to sell your current EPIC brain for over $22K to do better and you would still need to reserve your Weapon now, during NAB, to get the $5K accessories credit....

What sucks is that the timing to get the most out of it all is not going to work for everyone.
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I was confused on this point as well (and still may be) but it sounds like the $5,000 accessory credit only being good during NAB is for NEW Weapon purchases, not upgrades.

Per Brent (emphasis is mine):

Brent@RED said:
The $5000 WEAPON accessory credit is only during NAB for new camera orders. The $5000 Weapon accessory credit extends past NAB for Dragon to Weapon upgrades.
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Also, per Jarred in the beginning of this thread (again, emphasis in cyan is mine):

Jarred Land said:
- If you own SCARLET-X DRAGON before NAB, credit towards WEAPON is $5000 plus a $5000 weapon accessory credit. If you own Scarlet-X Dragon After NAB
begins, your trade in is $2500 plus a $5000 weapon accessory credit .

New Weapon camera orders will only receive the $5000 Weapon accessory credit during the week of NAB.
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I agree with this, but back when the redone appeared, there was absolutely nothing like it. That was one of the reasons I jumped in. Brain I think it was $17.500, and the competition, which could not do Raw or more than HD was over $100.000!! The gap was way larger in all aspects. Yes, now there is nothing in the market like Weapon and it will be the best camera in the market (for most of the jobs that need the best image, and options), no question about that but at these prices of upgrades, brain, accessories etc... I feel something has changed from the early days. Not complaining, just looking at the numbers. And I have a sad feeling that Red is getting closer to the bigger studios and further from the indie operator/owner. Because for instance, in my personal work, I could care less for the magnesium, Carbon fiber or what not, but if aluminum is cheaper, I'll take that, I'll even take hard stone if that means $5,000 less :-) But of course I'd love to own a CF. I've never flown my dragon on a drone or I think I will anyway or I havent gone to the everest with my Epic. I think Epic Aluminum is already so light. I used to back back with my redone, so Epic Dragon is a feather anyway. And the extra pounds in the indie work I do, aren't worth the extra $. But by making people needing the CF in order to get the 8K, future VV, definitively makes things more expensive, if I understood the things correctly. Also having 3 days to decide the upgrade in order to get the $5,000 credit, I find it too short considering the big amount of cash that this upgrade means.

Jeff Kilgroe said:
8K sensor is $10K if you buy now (pre-paid in full). It's $20K if you wait until later (ouch).

RED cameras are creeping upwards in price, but they're also increasing in capability as well and evolving a lot more rapidly than the competition. That said, they're still cameras and no one camera is right for every job or every person. While they are getting more expensive compared to some of the previous offerings, they are still a far better value than what Sony and Arri are offering. OTOH, 4K cameras are everywhere these days and some are very cheap. So an EPIC Dragon or Weapon is a lot of camera to buy into if the need is to just acquire acceptable 4K imagery.
Click to expand...
 
I know it is not a mandatory update, but if later on I won't be able to upgrade the sensor, then I don't see the point. A lot of money for practically the same camera, at least the same image. So people with brand new Weapons will have to charge more to recover the investment and compete with lower priced Dragons.
I am sad, since 2008 I've been with Red. Now I have the feeling I'm stepping down. I really wanted VV 8K, but price is prohibitive, and you have to pay a lot of money now, and all the options are not clear at all, or at least I still don't get, or I don't wan't to see it clearly.

I am sad as hell, I want to cry. Please, clarify some things if possible, like upgrade path of magnesium weapon to another sensor sometime.

Sorry for the rant, but it is a sad day for me, I didn't want to leave Red behind, but I have no choice. I still love my Dragon, best camera out there for me personally, but I may sell it, every camera manufacturer is lowering prices, Dragon itself is being depreciated officially, really don't know what to do. Glass seems a safer bet economically.
 
I don't understand 19,000 for a new body when I paid 9,500 for a new sensor. How is the body more than the sensor? Valuing the Dragon at 15 hurts too. Maybe if there was a bigger discount for people who have followed the upgrade path and spent more than people who have just bought a dragon x. Props for still doing the upgrade program though.
 
Santiago Marti said:
Dragon itself is being depreciated officially, really don't know what to do. Glass seems a safer bet economically.
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Have to say I agree. Barring a major announcement on frame rates or low light sensitivity (which...from an ethical stand point, should be on the site, ready to go before you even think of taking pre orders).

The cameras are great, the images are great. This upgrade path thing has reached circus levels in this iteration and I personally am bowing out as well. I will use my Dragon M for most of my projects this summer, sell it, eat the costs, and use the BM 4.6K URSA until CF Vista Vision is in the RED Store and then just buy new or used CF Vista Vision.

I'm sure RED has poured over the numbers and the current "deal" is the best they could do. However, it does draw a line in the sand for a lot of us. What are we willing to pay for ProRes? The BMCC 4.6K URSA shoots 120fps 4.6k raw AND ProRes simultaneously. No accessories, great build...$7,000.

The line in the sand is $20-$25,000 for an extra 1,500 lines of resolution and possibly a few hundred fps?

Can't justify it on my end.

Vista Vision will be a different story. It makes a lot more sense than going from Dragon to Weapon (again, at this point. Announced specs could change my tune).
 
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