An important tip for adding Saturation to RED footage

[Brian Boyer]

Although this is general info, I felt new Raven owners would benefit the most from it and be the least likely to already know it.

I originally posted this on the Shane's Inner Circle Facebook page. Since that's a closed group of which many may not be members, I'm also posting it here. Please spread the word on the info and share the link below. The more people who know, the better.


For those of you new to RED and previous users who aren't aware, I have a tip concerning Saturation and where/how it’s added in the operational chain that should help keep your images looking their best.

With R3D files (not ProRes or Avid DNx??), there are two places you can apply saturation: pre-gamma and post-gamma. The pre-gamma correction is found alongside the other metadata settings for R3Ds, wherever that resides in your software of choice.

The post-gamma saturation is found wherever you would add saturation to non-RAW images. For example, in Resolve, it’s below the Color Wheels. The exception is Redcine-X Pro, which only handles R3D files at the moment. Here, you’ll find the post-gamma Saturation controls in the Post:Look:Effects tab.

The reason this is important to know is they have VERY DIFFERENT effects on your footage. Pre-gamma saturation can cause your skin tones to take on an unnatural, yellowish-green tinge that looks terrible when applied at even a modest level.

This control is not gamma corrected and doesn’t behave like the majority of gamma-corrected saturation controls we’re used to using.

From Graeme Nattress of RED:

“What you're seeing is the difference between pre-gamma saturation and post-gamma saturation. Lightroom, for instance, does pre-gamma saturation and looks very much like our existing saturation control. When you take an image into Photoshop you're doing post-gamma saturation which looks different. I personally prefer the look of post-gamma saturation, hence it's inclusion, but I've had other people on their shots prefer the pre-gamma saturation so we've got them both available for you to use as appropriate.”


I’ve found that while a pre-gamma Saturation setting < 1.3 (1.0 is the default) can add a nice golden tone to skin and the image overall, anything more than that starts to look sickly in many cases. A setting of 1.1 combined with post-gamma saturation to taste can look nice as well.

I’m positive I’ve seen the result of pre-gamma saturation in RED-shot movies and tv programs and it makes me wonder if they knew the difference.

There was a time this had to be explained to me and I made a fairly long post about it here: http://bit.ly/1SQFud2

I initially thought is was a bug in Redcine-X. It was operator error on my part. I went back and made that clear in the first post so disregard the bug talk and focus on the images and the subsequent responses detailing what’s really going on.

Again, the difference in the images is caused by which method of saturation you choose. Try it for yourselves. I think in most cases, people will prefer to use a post-gamma (i.e. gamma-corrected) Saturation control.

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

Yep your right on

 

[Jon Dishler]

That is so helpful, thanks! I have noticed that anything more than adding 1.1 saturation looks terrible. I did not realize more saturation could be added post gamma!

I am new to Red/R3D workflow and I have another related question. I have noticed that when I bring up transcoded R3D files in FCP X that with the same settings they do not look as nice as when I bring them up in Redcine-X - look more yellow and less contrasty. My question is on final render of the R3D files (Dragoncolor2/REDgamma4) to H.264 should they look the same or does the REdcine-X have some better way of debayering the files? I would prefer to import/edit/export all within FCP X but would consider initially using Redcine-X and then exporting them as Prores 444, import into FCP X for edit if it makes a difference. I do understand that Redcine-X has some additional capabilites to process the files. This would also apply to other NLE's as i am trying to understand how critical Redcine-X is in the workflow. I have looked at resolve and it looks still different from the other two in the color window (before any changes are made).

Thanks again!

 

[Matt Ryan]

Yep, seen lots of people use pre-gamma saturation and their footage looks like crap (oversaturated, blotchy skintones, weird colors, etc). Go with POST saturation and you will be much more happy and so will all of your viewers!

Great post for those new to RED and even those who may have forgotten.

 

[Hal Long]

Thank you for this tip. Any idea of where the default saturation takes place when setting a look in Redcine and applying it in camera? Pre/post gamma? I don't have my dragon with me at the moment or I'd check myself!

Thanks,

H

 

[Matt Ryan]

That is so helpful, thanks! I have noticed that anything more than adding 1.1 saturation looks terrible. I did not realize more saturation could be added post gamma!

I am new to Red/R3D workflow and I have another related question. I have noticed that when I bring up transcoded R3D files in FCP X that with the same settings they do not look as nice as when I bring them up in Redcine-X - look more yellow and less contrasty. My question is on final render of the R3D files (Dragoncolor2/REDgamma4) to H.264 should they look the same or does the REdcine-X have some better way of debayering the files? I would prefer to import/edit/export all within FCP X but would consider initially using Redcine-X and then exporting them as Prores 444, import into FCP X for edit if it makes a difference. I do understand that Redcine-X has some additional capabilites to process the files. This would also apply to other NLE's as i am trying to understand how critical Redcine-X is in the workflow. I have looked at resolve and it looks still different from the other two in the color window (before any changes are made).

Thanks again!

It's what is known as the "Quicktime Gamma Issue." https://discussions.apple.com/thread/5965995?tstart=0

The footage should look correct on other media players like VLC, etc after you transcode them from RC-x. It's a quicktime thing which is obviously hand in hand with FCPx. But check your files in VLC to see if they match what you see in RC-x.

 

[Matt Ryan]

Thank you for this tip. Any idea of where the default saturation takes place when setting a look in Redcine and applying it in camera? Pre/post gamma? I don't have my dragon with me at the moment or I'd check myself!

Thanks,

H

Only Pre-Gamma is in the metadata for in camera looks. Post Gamma is not available in camera as are none of the Post Effects options from RC-x. If your in your camera's menu and adjust the saturation level, that is the pre-gamma adjustment.

 

[Antony Newman]

Thankyou Brian.

Very useful (including the linked 'Nerdy' article!)

AJ

 

[Hal Long]

Only Pre-Gamma is in the metadata for in camera looks. Post Gamma is not available in camera as are none of the Post Effects options from RC-x. If your in your camera's menu and adjust the saturation level, that is the pre-gamma adjustment.

Thanks, Matt!

 

[Joel Voelker]

What I like is reducing the contrast and upping the saturation in-camera. They technically work against each other but the result is pleasing.

 

[Steven Shea]

Is this sort of practice exclusive to RED, or is it standard for working with raw files in general?

 

[Michael Reiken]

Where would I apply post-gamma saturation in Premiere Pro? Is it just in Lumetri like I normally would with DSLR footage?

 

[Marc Wielage]

Again, the difference in the images is caused by which method of saturation you choose. Try it for yourselves. I think in most cases, people will prefer to use a post-gamma (i.e. gamma-corrected) Saturation control.

I never use saturation within the Raw controls, but there are ways to change saturation controls in four or five different ways in color-correction software like Resolve -- including dividing the picture into highlights, mid-tones, and lowlights and treating each one differently. You can also use secondaries to emphasize or de-emphasize some specific colors differently than others, hinging on the creative intent specific scene and the lighting involved. There's also Color Boost (aka Vibrance), which raises low-sat images at a different rate than highly-saturated images. One knob will not do all this.

I personally think the knobs in RedCine-X Pro are way too coarse and clunky for what you need to do in a final. To me, that's a hatchet -- and what you really need is a scalpel for really fine control. Baselight, Lustre, Mistika, Nucoda, Pablo, Resolve... there's lots of good choices for tools out there. And saturation is one of those things that is really critical. And it also demands a calibrated display and preferably a hardware control surface.

 

[Matt Ryan]

Where would I apply post-gamma saturation in Premiere Pro? Is it just in Lumetri like I normally would with DSLR footage?

Any saturation adjustment not done in the raw camera tab (R3D metadata tab).

 

[Marcus Friedlander]

Its also important to note that the post effect saturation slider in RCX does not carry over to some programs like Premiere Pro. So, you should test your full workflow before spending time messing around with any of the post effects tabs.

 

[Andy_Johnson]

Excellent tip - thank you for this!

 

[Christoffer Glans]

I would also suggest that when doing post-gamma changes to saturation, use the Lum vs Sat in Resolve to have a little more control over not pushing too much saturation into different parts of the luma scale.