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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

American DITs... ugghhh

I'm not a DIT but I do work in post and do VFX supervision and I can easily explain $1,000 a day and it comes down to one reason: scarcity. People in the film industry are some of the most creative and resourceful people I've ever met. When it comes to creative problem solving from directors, editors, DPs, grips, colorists and electricians down to PAs and producers--what an average film crew accomplishes on a daily basis is extraordinary.. BUT... they're generally Luddites (you knew I was buttering you up for something didn't you? :D ).

Even in the post industry most people learn *how* something works but not *why* something works. How works great when you are doing the same task over and over again. "How do you assemble this dolly?" But that's not what you pay a grip for, you pay a grip to understand *why* you setup a dolly a certain way. So when you hand them something completely new, some new fangled piece of rigging equipment they can go "Oh, I get it, this acts like the _____ so if I _____ it will ______." When someone can take a process they understand and apply it in a new situation that's when you know they understand the inner workings. Digital is still in the how. There is so much though now to digital capture and it's changing so fast that a really good DIT should understand everything from sensors, to codecs, to programming, to IT, editng, to networking, to colorspaces, to grading, to storage, to.... etc etc etc. It's like the difference between a mechanic who can fix a 93 Honda because they were trained on how to fix a 93 honda vs a mechanic who understands the principles and can fix anything.

How does compression work? When do you need lower compression? When can you get away with higher compression? What's the difference between linear and log? In essence a good DIT in my opinion should be an on-set knowledge base for people who don't understand anything about the technical process and that is whyy..... they're hanging out with the director, they're hanging out with the producer, they're hanging out with the DP, they're chatting up the camera assistants. It's the same reason the VFX supervisor is often in the same situation and it usually makes me kind of uncomfortable but it's also unavoidable. The director will call you over and ask if it's ok to frame a shot like this and you have to walk that fine line between "Well, if you shot a little wide we can crop it down in post but it would give us more tracking information." The producer wants to know how much the director's shot list is going to cost for post. The DP wants to know if you're happy with the levels on the green screen, and you diplomatically ask if they would be willing to change the exposure slightly for a better key, the camera assistant has meta data that you need etc etc etc... That's all the rationalization for the '20 something' 'overpaid' technician floating around set in the case of a VFX supervisor but a good DIT should be answering similar questions and interacting with all of the decision heads. Maybe you can recommend to the DP that they could use HDRx, but what is HDRx? Are there any sacrifices? The producers want to know if the doubled data rate is worth the time/cost etc. The DP wants to see the shot with a one-light pass, but they have no idea what REDCine is nor have they have touched it, maybe is an F65 shoot and they've never used Sony's raw processor. Everything is interconnected. There are very few people I know of who can reliably answer just about any question about all of the camera systems. There are tons of people who can operate. Supply and demand. Lots of DPs and directors who know nothing about technology and very few people who are familiar all the facets of digital production means a pool of DITs who can charge high rates.

I love film making and I love directing, shooting and all of the creative positions but I also recognize that every position is a unique talent; very few directors, DPs or other crew really have a strong grasp of all this new fangled technology--nor should they necessarily have to, that's why you pay consultants. I don't expect directors to understand all of the post ramifications of their decisions when I'm VFX supervising. But I'm happy to give them perspective if they ask (or to subtly let the producer know that their directors' decisions are going to cost them $30,000 to shoot that sequence handheld instead of locked off) and to try and provide solutions to any obstacles the technology creates "That specifically wouldn't work, but you could accomplish something very similar by ______" . It's not their job to know or care but a smart Creative will lean on their post people to make better informed creative decisions. Their job on set that day is to direct, light, act, produce etc. A good onset post artist should let a DP worry about lighting but be a resource to help them understand what their decisions will look like in post. They're a translator between someone's vision and the computers which make it real.

As to them being a douchebag? Well, some people are just douchebags. ;)
 
and to Ivan, subject is pretty much talked to, to death already. If you're ever in NY again shoot me a PM and I'll take you out to a drink of your choice. I assure you I have a much better bedside manner than who you were dealing with. Jerks are jerks, that's all it boils down to. Doesn't matter what field. There are Dp's, Directors, gaffers, ac's, producers, etc etc. that think their shit don't stink. a lot of the time it's a ego game, and generalizing over a single incident kind of gets people heated up. It's a shame it had to happen, and hope you'll have a more pleasant on set experience with your crew if you are ever back in the states.

Thanks Tom. I may take you up on that! I shoot for a few NYC productions regularly, so I might pop over for a business trip at some point this year, to also pitch some projects I wanna do as well. Also I think I mentioned this already, but yeah, douchebaggery is is certainly without borders. This post was regarding a very specific (but growing) subset of DITs who I have consistently heard though travelling shooters and productions who are growing problematic. It wasn't the first time I heard about this on a production, and it was certainly a surprise to actually see it come about. Arrogance for arrogances sake on set like this is never a justification. It is actually more an indication of insecurity of one's place in the world IMHO.
 
Christ. $25,000 a day?? Yes I asked about american DITs, then your answer "the business" in the worldwide business. I assumed you meant worldwide, but I see that you meant Los Angeles, clearly being the only place on the planet that has a production industry ;)

Mate, I wouldn't even get out of bed for 10,000 yen/day :)

Then again, to work as a DIT at $2,000/day for 20 days and have enough money for the whole year both sounds insane to me, yet a great deal. The reason why I am confused is because I know how easy the job actually is (despite the long hours). If you know the cameras, how to get the best image, how to troubleshoot, how to transcode, how to do a 1 light you have it 95% of the job covered.

But its not easy... On a one camera shoot sure. But Tom Wong, my DIT, LcL600, is constantly custom building and rewroking his tower on a perjob basis. One day its 3 epics, with dailies, with a free wheeling director who never yells cut, the next its a 2 Alexa RAW old style Codex job. You try painting two cameras, and custom designing checksum scripts to find the balance between speed of offoads, security, while rendering dailies, and media management. its not an easy job. Its an easy job for one camera, but critical for multi cam, and QC.
 
I just stumbled over this from Kwan Khan in a thread about DIT carts, and thought I would share.

:)


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Mac Book pro (R)
+ Sonnet Echo Express Pro ($799)
+ Tempo SSD Pro ($299)
+ Two OCZ 512 GB Vertex 4 (total $1060)
+ BT Red Rocket ($3000)
+ AJA T-Tap (thunderbolt)($295)
+ Black magic UltraStudio Express (thunderbolt) ($470)
+ RED STATION REDMAG 1.8" (MINI) - USB 3.0 ($195)
+ Seagate Flex Desk Thunderbolt Adapter for Seagate GoFlex Desk($185)
+ Euphonic MC Color ($1200)
+ Sony Field Monitor ($3000).




Some Real TIPs for all DIT (lol);

If you sit there dragging and dropping to transfer files, you are not a DIT.

If you don't know color theory, you are not a DIT.

If you cannot read a histogram, you are not a DIT.

If you can't setups like detail, noise reduction, secondary color correction in the camera in every scene, you are not a DIT.

If you can't match whole material on set instead of "fixing everything in post", you are not a DIT.

If you can't record the proper signal - so you could use as much information in post as you can, you are not a DIT.

If you never use a gray card, guess what, you don't know why you should use a gray card, and you are not a DIT.

If you can't advise on exposure, you are not a DIT.

If your DP does not respect your opinion, you are not a DIT.

If you color on set, yet don't/can't calibrate your own monitor, you are not a DIT.

If you are not the consultant on set for your camera crew, you are not a DIT.

If producers are more excited over your rate than your work, you are not a DIT.



A DIT is a person who is competent in data management, look creation, and giving knowledgable advice to the DP on ways to get the best image possible.

Good luck
 
I don't even remember one sole post I hadn't appreciated from you, Ivan... my personal Kudos for this thread!

Cheers,

E. :-)
 
Timur, and Patrick,

Thanks for sharing!

Emanuel,

Thx. I try not to mince my words and bullshit anybody. I love my career and value everybody's opinion, be it negative or positive (As long as they aren't punching below the belt).

Ivan
 
I have to say, I was sure this thread was going to flare up and get locked. The fact that it became quite a diverse set of well-vocalized, blunt yet tactful opinions from many vantage points and ended up being incredibly enlightening, even to someone that makes part of their living as a DIT, is quite the testament to RedUser as a whole.
 
I have to say, I was sure this thread was going to flare up and get locked. The fact that it became quite a diverse set of well-vocalized, blunt yet tactful opinions from many vantage points and ended up being incredibly enlightening, even to someone that makes part of their living as a DIT, is quite the testament to RedUser as a whole.

Hell, we are all in this industry together, for beter and worse. The net has made the world a tiny place and we are all better for it.
 
I have to say, I was sure this thread was going to flare up and get locked. The fact that it became quite a diverse set of well-vocalized, blunt yet tactful opinions from many vantage points and ended up being incredibly enlightening, even to someone that makes part of their living as a DIT, is quite the testament to RedUser as a whole.

I was just thinking the same thing
 
This is a moot point if you believe some in this business that DIT work will eventually be done in camera.
I always say get the highest rate you can and learn from Michael Douglas, always travel with a douche bag don't be a douche bag!
 
#1: The business is changing. Fast. Every week.

#2: Post is now on set. Assistant Editors are a thing of the Past. Asking a 1st AC to handle Post issues is silly.

#3: A DIT that can handle data, QC, color-correct live-stream video per the Director's and DP's vision, provide sync colored dailies with proper metadata, and help out the rest of the camera dept. is worth $2000 a day. A year ago this took at least 24 hours and cost at least twice as much.

#4: There were, are, and always will be Douchebags in this world.

#5: If you can't deal with working with Douchebags you're in the wrong business.

Post is not "now on set" for the vast majority of productions. Some people do this, most try once and realize how much valuable set time they are wasting doing something they could do in post, with no actors, locations, etc. etc. running up hourly rates. Post on set in a stupid idea, in my opinion, a bit like "train your dog on set" or "learn a new language on tape while directing". Anything that diverts focus from getting shots in the can is a huge time and money waster. besides, on location, say on the street or in a cramped building, or etc. etc., there is often no practical place to set up a proper color grading environment.
 
I can Answer this...

as a colorist.. I assume you have a designated work area right?
a permanent desk set up in a suite?
Well, yes, I have an office space I rent, where I have my grading suite, kitchen and the waiting area and where i work with my clients. Otherwise I'd call myself a DIT and charge extra for the coffee:-)

I
as a DIT.. we have to haul a heavy cart around, plugging in and unplugging cables...
red rockets for example.. super fragile.. being in a mobile situation ensures they go bad even faster..

So the kit rental basically covers our replacement costs for everything..
I thought it's called insurance:-)
Everyone's equipment goes bad from time to time too and everyone MUST update it to be current and competitive. If I decided to buy a $30k BM control panel to go with my Resolve and started to charge a premium for doing the job with that panel, that would be the last time, that I would see that client. Same goes for grading with my FilmMaster, which is well over a $100k (software only) or using a $1k (software only) Resolve. Same price for my work regardless. Sorry, but I'm still not convinced by your reasoning.
 
Well, yes, I have an office space I rent, where I have my grading suite, kitchen and the waiting area and where i work with my clients. Otherwise I'd call myself a DIT and charge extra for the coffee:-)

You wouldn't have the coffee because that belongs to craft service :laugh:

Everyone's equipment goes bad from time to time too and everyone MUST update it to be current and competitive. If I decided to buy a $30k BM control panel to go with my Resolve and started to charge a premium for doing the job with that panel, that would be the last time, that I would see that client. Same goes for grading with my FilmMaster, which is well over a $100k (software only) or using a $1k (software only) Resolve. Same price for my work regardless. Sorry, but I'm still not convinced by your reasoning.

I think what's being pointed out is simply that different segments of the business have different models. The model for production has always been different than the model for post, in part because production has always been a mobile industry while post has traditionally been non-mobile. So production adopted a model to suit that mobility, namely a rental model in which some department keys supply some of their own gear and are given a box rental for it (almost always on a daily or weekly rate), completely separate from their employment compensation. In post, the work has, until recently, usually required an infrastructure that is by its nature not mobile, and a model in which the clients come to the facility that has the gear, rather than the other way around. The cost of the infrastructure, and the maintenance and replacement of the gear, has always been presumed to be part of the hourly rates (not daily or weekly) that are charged for various rooms, talent, and services. That is, for better or worse, one of the reasons that post production has, especially in recent years, been one of the lowest profit margin businesses around. Now, admittedly, a lot of that is changing - the very notion of post being non-mobile is a bit dated - so perhaps some of that model will change with it. But change in this industry, especially in terms of the business models, happens very, very slowly, if at all, regardless of technical innovation.
 
You wouldn't have the coffee because that belongs to craft service :laugh:



I think what's being pointed out is simply that different segments of the business have different models. The model for production has always been different than the model for post, in part because production has always been a mobile industry while post has traditionally been non-mobile. So production adopted a model to suit that mobility, namely a rental model in which some department keys supply some of their own gear and are given a box rental for it (almost always on a daily or weekly rate), completely separate from their employment compensation. In post, the work has, until recently, usually required an infrastructure that is by its nature not mobile, and a model in which the clients come to the facility that has the gear, rather than the other way around. The cost of the infrastructure, and the maintenance and replacement of the gear, has always been presumed to be part of the hourly rates (not daily or weekly) that are charged for various rooms, talent, and services. That is, for better or worse, one of the reasons that post production has, especially in recent years, been one of the lowest profit margin businesses around. Now, admittedly, a lot of that is changing - the very notion of post being non-mobile is a bit dated - so perhaps some of that model will change with it. But change in this industry, especially in terms of the business models, happens very, very slowly, if at all, regardless of technical innovation.
Yes, I agree, good point. So now, which post facility has the gumption to be the first in starting to itemize all the items, that were used to perform the work?
 
Anything that diverts focus from getting shots in the can is a huge time and money waster.

I don't see how it diverts any focus, it shouldn't take more than a second and it should be done by someone who wasn't going to be doing something else anyway like a DIT or Assistant editor. I think post on set is a huge time-saver, especially with VFX shots. Getting rough comps on set ensures that you are shooting everything you need. You know what's a real time and money waster? Showing up in post and finding out that if you had only _______ you could save several days of work. In a perfect world your VFX peeps would notice every single obstacle on set but there is a lot going on and sometimes a quick rough test can confirm theories or change people's minds. It's amazingly productive and useful to get director/agency/creative sign off on-set. It's a lot cheaper to make changes on the day of the shoot than to reshoot or try and make bad footage work. I've also seen the reverse where a quick rough confirms that they're shooting overly cautiously and that they can shoot faster/looser without any repercussions.

Shoot for the edit. Light for the grade and capture everything you need for VFX. Why wait a week to find out you wish you had made a small change that would have made a big difference for the final product.
 
Yes, I agree, good point. So now, which post facility has the gumption to be the first in starting to itemize all the items, that were used to perform the work?


To some degree, those that are involved in mobile operations, both for near set dailies and finishing work, are already doing that to some degree. Once you break out of the permanent infrastructure environment, it's a bit easier to adjust rates based on supplied equipment. In both dailies and finishing operations that are done remotely, the equipment supplied is usually detailed in line items and the bottom line cost adjusted accordingly. For a shorter shoot, less storage is needed and the cost of the system is adjusted to reflect that. If it's a longer shoot, and/or they require projection, or a location trailer to house it, or double the storage, or a separate NAS to hold already processed material, they are charged for that. If two operators are needed to allow for more covered hours, they are charged for that as well. In short, unlike the facility model, they actually do get charged on a usage model rather than on a set hourly rate that is all inclusive. As I said earlier, though, it's very difficult to get clients to buy off on that when they're coming to you rather than the other way around. Which is one of the things that makes mobile and location based post a good model, albeit not for all clients or all productions.
 
Post is not "now on set" for the vast majority of productions. Some people do this, most try once and realize how much valuable set time they are wasting doing something they could do in post, with no actors, locations, etc. etc. running up hourly rates. Post on set in a stupid idea, in my opinion, a bit like "train your dog on set" or "learn a new language on tape while directing". Anything that diverts focus from getting shots in the can is a huge time and money waster. besides, on location, say on the street or in a cramped building, or etc. etc., there is often no practical place to set up a proper color grading environment.

Post on set doesn't make the shoot day go faster.

Post on set makes the project, as a whole, finish sooner.

It's irrelevant what you, as a person on set, wants. Producers, more and more are seeing the value (including both overall project quality and overall project cost savings) of having someone on set that can look at the footage with a post-production eye and even make headway into various areas of post. Since producers are the ones that make the hiring decisions and decide how to allocate money, then post-production and production will continue to merge.
 
DITfalls

DITfalls

Great thread. One fundamental issue is that the DIT position is the least understood and least codified of any job title I can think of.

IAC, I am a big advocate of DIT being sub-contracted by post rather than production. I've been a camera department guy for a long time and I can see the potential blowback of a post guy being foisted on the camera crew. That said, expecting budget obsessed UPMs to put resources into hiring quality DITs with proper skills and kit is shaky at best. Post has more skin in the game in terms of the value of a top flight DIT in the mix. Post also has the engineering staff and understanding of what they need to complete the process. Moreover post is a better venue for the creation and maintenance of proper DIT kit - Michael Cioni at LightIRON has worked this angle nicely, and funneled projects into his facility to boot.

I know this is heresy to many, but I've been doing this for quite a while and the business model for making a proper living as an independent DIT is fundamentally flawed. From what I've seen for every DIT like Dino, Big Lu, etc there are at least 5 DITs fighting for decent rates and box rental to keep up payments on expensive gear. Add in constantly getting pummeled by the politics, last minute schedule changes, technological shifts, difficulty in getting across why a skilled DIT with the proper kit is worth the delta over a low cost data manager, etc.

Yes, you can argue that if you're really good (and not a d-bag) you can overcome all that - unfortunately, from what I've seen working in multiple genres/locations/budget levels - the DIT marketplace behaves too irrationally for that to consistently be the case. Just sayin'

Cheers - #19
 
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