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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Ambush test...

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battistella said:
TJ,

In quoting Jim, I was asking him what the test that RED is setting up would involve.

Sorry for the confusion.

The camera is out there now, so people are going to praise it and some may try to take pot shots. That's life. I am sure that RED has a thick skin.

David
Click to expand...

We do NOT have thick skin... :-)

Jim
 
battistella said:
What would this test involve?

David
Click to expand...

I was about to ask that. What are the specifics?What will they be looking at, what will be compared? What convincing arguments could they possibly make to show and establish the superiority of film, as they see it. Let there be no assumption on their part that RED is claiming to look "exactly" or even superior to film, 'cause thats a subjective matter. IMHO RED has achieved the motion look that up until now had been exclusive to film, but has it's own special aesthetics, and has also managed to avoid the Video look we've come know and hate. I'm really curious to see the conclusions they come to.
 
If someone wants to "win" a test... it is pretty easy. Just don't invite the other players.

We are suggesting a test where all the other players are invited.

Jim
 
The upside...

The upside...

obviously, is that RED is getting more media mentions. The RED name being dropped in the same circles as the heavy weights can only serve to increase brand of RED even further.
 
I guess Kodak is looking to survive in this changing landscape, and to a certain extent I feel bad that film may someday be an afterthought. But here is my artistic point of view, which differs from my economic point of view. I don't want to see film go away. I actually like it a lot. I like the way it captures images. I like how different stocks react to light. I see it as an artistic choice, one a filmmaker can make to best tell their story. Red will have it's own place. It will be a popular choice, with its own style, its own possibilities. One isn't right, one isn't wrong. I kind of hope this choice doesn't go away.

The economic side of me realizes Kodak and other film stock companies need to make money or they won't survive. Budgets are being cut too, so filmmakers are looking for more practical ways to shoot. Sometimes it's not about creative choices, but about getting it done on time and on budget. This is why film will go away eventually, or at least be the minority. Because it will be less practical for many productions, and demand for film will continue to decline until Kodak and others cannot sustain that part of their business and will have to join the digital acquisition side of things.

In a perfect world, we would have our choices.

Steve
 
I love film, too. But a test should be fair. Not an ambush.

Jim
 
"I can't buy Kodak 5218 in 24-exposure roll, let alone get it developed properly..."

some motion picture labs will sell/give you a roll of any motion film out there and process it ( $$) ... the longer the better = go for 36 exp ..
 
Jannard said:
If someone wants to "win" a test... it is pretty easy. Just don't invite the other players.

We are suggesting a test where all the other players are invited.

Jim
Click to expand...

Jim,

I think that is a great idea. I wonder if everyone could agree on the parameters of the test. I'm not sure that everyone else is, or wants to be as transparent as RED.

On the thick skin. I get the impression you guys are tough enough to deal with some adversity, challenges or even pure fabrication, that's my perception.. :)

David
 
I have every thin skin... I want to kick everyone's ass. :-)

Jim
 
Jim,

They are only doing this cause they see themselves losing ground. They are trying to run a race they are destined to lose.

I am curious who ELSE is involved with this 'test'. I would call it a "setup" myself.

Jay
 
Jannard said:
We have a tip there there is an ambush test going on this weekend. We have been told that someone from Kodak is doing a side by side test where the results "have been pre-determined". The cameras involved are RED, D20, F23 and a 35mm film camera. Should be interesting. By the way, RED was not invited to the test.

We are scheduling a similar test. But we will invite all companies involved to supervise the test. The only way a test like this is valid.

Jim
Click to expand...

So Kodak bought one of the first RED's?
I love film as much as the next guy. It really
is not the film cost but the transfer cost now.
I was quoted $1000 per hour to do film to
digital 2K. And this is in Dallas....maybe LA is cheaper?
RED will be fine for 99% of most work.
 
The Kodak propaganda dvd is kind of funny to watch. Particularly where they have a car on a track going through cones and they are saying that with a digital camera you can't focus it as well as you can with the optical film camera viewfinder. It may be partially true (depending on the viewfinder), but the "digital" footage they show is a joke. Totally set up.
 
RED will win

RED will win

in the marketplace. Real world tests have a reliable scrutiny that will be undeniable. RED team has demonstrated courage behind the leadership of Jannard.

The responsibility of the RED collective is produce strong artistic and commercial material that will give RED credibility.
 
I'm not bothered by this at all. The Red camera is a revolution but it also has a very big supporting community.
 
I love film, too. But a test should be fair. Not an ambush.

Jim
Click to expand...

Agree 100%. I was getting a bit philosophical there because I'd like to see them coexisting.

But in terms of the test, if they are going to do something to screw with the digital footage, that's too bad. Won't help their cause if people find out that's what happened. But if they are truly feeling the sting from digital acquisition, I don't foresee them inviting you to a test. It's not so much that Red would blow film out of the water (in all due respect, it's not like we are comparing Red to a DVX. Film will hold its own in a fair testing situation) but Red will win because people will see how much quality is there, how much you can do to manipulate it to get a look, and at the pricepoint, film won't be able to compete. People will see the writing on the wall. And if Kodak is trying to hold on to their film stock lineup, that would be damaging. But the reality is, they probably understand where this is all heading more than anyone. I'm sure they are looking at transitioning, they will go where the money is.

Steve
 
Jim,
You should've done this first! What's the worst that can happen.
I guess the problems you have is it's an unreliable beta camera which in a write-up will look poor.
I hope the DR and demosiac is as good as you can get it!
I'd leave Gibby's test alone.

Call for an open invite to a shoot out with industry names...gonna happen if you do it or not!
Include cml.net as I'm sure for all their words they (cml) still want to be a part of any revolution.
Make sure you get others from outside.
All of this can only generate advertising...it's your job to make sure some of it is real....preferably real good!
good luck............
 
A few notes:

1. If it is an ambush test, then the test was defined in terms of the differences between Red and film, so that the outcome will favor film. Done deal. They won't need to tamper with anything.

2. Underhanded actions of the kind that this appears to be are difficult to get right, so it is likely that it will be screwed up in some way.

3. Playing a silly game like this could greatly accelerate the decline of film.

4. Watching the media reaction to the story and how the story ripples through the industry will tell an enormous amount about the lay of the land. It's like sonar.

5. The driving force is shareholder valuation. This kind of thing is almost inevitable.

6. As the new technology replacing a moribund technology, Red has the upper hand. Most of the danger associated with something like this is the risk of responding inappropriately and surrendering the upper hand. Just stay the course and redouble the promotion.

7. If Red's approach is more intelligent than the competing approach, it can be a lot of fun watching the story unfold.
 
Jim and gang, I know this is your baby and no one likes to hear the baby is ugly...but,you know, none of this really matters in the long run. kodak, sony, cml and the like are in denial but the fact is people like Sodenberg are using red for features. They don't have to but they want to, nuff said ! Over time as the results get around, what Kodak thinks won't matter to anyone and the Red camera will be legend. We have to wait and see what the bogus test comes up with but the tide will turn rather quickly and there is no going back. If you own Kodak or Sony stock, now would be a good time to sell.
Aloha
-A
 
I can see Sony dropping out of the race, at least for a little while. Kodak, I don't know. They have a lot at stake here, they've been around for a long time. I see them doing something to stay in the game. Perhaps they design their own sensor, maybe their own camera. Film is not going to disappear overnight, so they have a little time to make this happen. Red has the leg up on everybody right now. For all of us, that's a good thing.

Steve
 
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