Ambient ACL 203 with Red

[King Cheung]

I bought an Ambient ACL 203 and use it with Red and SD702T. Somehow, probably I don't set correctly of the Switches or something else. The TC's isn't dead-on. It is either accurate, or SD TC is one frame behind the Red TC.
Anyone has any experience teaching me, please?
Thanks.

 

[Stuart English]

Ambient ACL 203

Ambient ACL 203

Should work fine. What is your cabling scheme here King?

 

[King Cheung]

Should work fine. What is your cabling scheme here King?

Thank you for your reply, Sturat.
I am using a Remote Audio's CATCLL LEMO-5 to LEMO-5 Timecode Cable (3') bought from B&H. Is it the cable that you are asking?
How about the Switches? Should I set it as 1080/25p or something? Yes, I am from a PAL and 25 frame country.
Thanks in advance.

 

[Stuart English]

Cabling

Cabling

1080 P at 25 fps is fine.

How are you feeding timecode to the SD 702?

 

[King Cheung]

Thanks, Stuart, and that's the way I am doing it:

1./ turn on my 702T, and then connect the ACL203 with timecode cable
2./ go to 702T's jam menu, and choose "Jam RX TC," and then turn on the ACL203
3./ it will show the same timecode on the 702T display (with my eye seeing the same timecode)
4./ disconnect ACL203 from 702T, and connect ACL203 to Red's TC connector, and finally start to record.

Anything wrong? Please help me and correct me.

Thanks a lot in advance.

 

[King Cheung]

1080 P at 25 fps is fine.

How are you feeding timecode to the SD 702?

Hi, Stuart, am I doing the right procedure?
Thanks.

 

[Brian Ferguson]

Thanks, Stuart, and that's the way I am doing it:

1./ turn on my 702T, and then connect the ACL203 with timecode cable
2./ go to 702T's jam menu, and choose "Jam RX TC," and then turn on the ACL203
3./ it will show the same timecode on the 702T display (with my eye seeing the same timecode)
4./ disconnect ACL203 from 702T, and connect ACL203 to Red's TC connector, and finally start to record.

Anything wrong? Please help me and correct me.

Thanks a lot in advance.

Are you using the 702T as the master clock? This is a good way to do it. You would want to use the 702T in the 24H Run mode of the TC Mode, make sure you have the internal 702T clock set to the right time-of-day in the TIME/DATE SET (TOD, I keep the clock in 24hr mode)

Stay out of the JAM RX TC menu you don't need it, it is for jamming the 702T to an outside device, here you are jamming to the outside device the ACL.

You want to use the Clockit to take the code from your 702T to the camera.

Make sure everything - camera, Clockit, 702T all have the same frame rate.
Make sure the 702T is set to 48K audio (same as the camera's sample rate).
Turn on the Clockit and 702T plug the Clockit into the 5 pin Lemo attached to the 702T.
The LED light on the Clockit should go from blinking red to green.
Then disconnect the Lemo from the 702T and hook it into the camera's 5 pin Lemo.
Make sure the RED is set-up for JAM (but not set to Output) in the system menu.
That should do it.

You probably should take a BNC from the sync out on the ACL and hook it into the Genlock of the RED and turn on Genlock in RED One from the Shutter menu. If everything is hooked correctly up you should get a Gold Chain (TC) and Padlock (Genlock) symbol in the LCD or EVF display on the camera. Genlock is going to keep the relationship between the numbers and the shutter consistent between takes, otherwise you may be a partial frame off. Since it is built in to the ACL, why not?

How are you determining the accuracy of the sync? Are you using a Timecode Slate?
Make sure you are checking it in your favorite editing program.

 

[Deanan]

If you have a master controller, I'd also recommend tuning the clockits with the master controller.

 

[King Cheung]

Are you using the 702T as the master clock? This is a good way to do it. You would want to use the 702T in the 24H Run mode of the TC Mode, make sure you have the internal 702T clock set to the right time-of-day in the TIME/DATE SET (TOD, I keep the clock in 24hr mode)

Stay out of the JAM RX TC menu you don't need it, it is for jamming the 702T to an outside device, here you are jamming to the outside device the ACL.

You want to use the Clockit to take the code from your 702T to the camera.

Make sure everything - camera, Clockit, 702T all have the same frame rate.
Make sure the 702T is set to 48K audio (same as the camera's sample rate).
Turn on the Clockit and 702T plug the Clockit into the 5 pin Lemo attached to the 702T.
The LED light on the Clockit should go from blinking red to green.
Then disconnect the Lemo from the 702T and hook it into the camera's 5 pin Lemo.
Make sure the RED is set-up for JAM (but not set to Output) in the system menu.
That should do it.

You probably should take a BNC from the sync out on the ACL and hook it into the Genlock of the RED and turn on Genlock in RED One from the Shutter menu. If everything is hooked correctly up you should get a Gold Chain (TC) and Padlock (Genlock) symbol in the LCD or EVF display on the camera. Genlock is going to keep the relationship between the numbers and the shutter consistent between takes, otherwise you may be a partial frame off. Since it is built in to the ACL, why not?

How are you determining the accuracy of the sync? Are you using a Timecode Slate?
Make sure you are checking it in your favorite editing program.

Thanks a lot, Brain. We don't use Genlock, and let us try using it this afternoon and see if the situation improved.

The way we check the accuracy is simply by listening, and we don't have a TC Slate.

Thank you again.

 

[King Cheung]

If you have a master controller, I'd also recommend tuning the clockits with the master controller.

Mater controller? I don't think we have. What is master controller? Is 702T the one?
Thanks, Deanan.

 

[Brian Ferguson]

The master controller is a "Master Clock" that Ambient makes that you can use it as a very accurate clock to set everything with, the Clockit/Lockit and your 702T. It has a lot of extra features that go beyond using your recorder as a clock source. It also has an optional GPS antenna that you can get super accurate time from satellites.

If you use the method I listed above you can shoot the TC display of the 702T while rolling audio and camera and it should give you a fairly close reading of what your camera TC sync is to audio. Like shooting a TC Slate. You must look at the footage after you shoot it with an editor like Final Cut to know if TC is accurate. There is no other way.

A Master Controller is really good but I would get a TC Slate as soon as possible.
You can find these products here.
http://www.ambient.de/produkte/timecode/timecode_e.html

Deneke also makes similar products.

 

[King Cheung]

The master controller is a "Master Clock" that Ambient makes that you can use it as a very accurate clock to set everything with, the Clockit/Lockit and your 702T. It has a lot of extra features that go beyond using your recorder as a clock source. It also has an optional GPS antenna that you can get super accurate time from satellites.

If you use the method I listed above you can shoot the TC display of the 702T while rolling audio and camera and it should give you a fairly close reading of what your camera TC sync is to audio. Like shooting a TC Slate. You must look at the footage after you shoot it with an editor like Final Cut to know if TC is accurate. There is no other way.

A Master Controller is really good but I would get a TC Slate as soon as possible.
You can find these products here.
http://www.ambient.de/produkte/timecode/timecode_e.html

Deneke also makes similar products.

Thanks, Brain. Now I know what a Master Controller is.
Also, it is a really nice method by shooting the 702T's TC display like shooting a real TC slate. An excellent good tip!!
Thank you.

 

[Brian Ferguson]

Thanks, Brain. Now I know what a Master Controller is.
Also, it is a really nice method by shooting the 702T's TC display like shooting a real TC slate. An excellent good tip!!
Thank you.

I would use that to test sync, but it is not a practical replacement for a TC Slate on a shoot. This works best with the Sound Devices recorder in the internal clock mode.

 

[King Cheung]

I would use that to test sync, but it is not a practical replacement for a TC Slate on a shoot. This works best with the Sound Devices recorder in the internal clock mode.

Thanks for your reminding me about setting to internal clock mode, Brian.
But I wonder if SD machine's TC display is accurate enough up to 1/25 seconds for checking sync purpose. So, I think maybe it is why you said that it is not a replacement of TC slate, or I misunderstand your meaning.
Thank you very much.

 

[Brian Ferguson]

Thanks for your reminding me about setting to internal clock mode, Brian.
But I wonder if SD machine's TC display is accurate enough up to 1/25 seconds for checking sync purpose. So, I think maybe it is why you said that it is not a replacement of TC slate, or I misunderstand your meaning.
Thank you very much.

I tested this recently and wondered about the recorder display accuracy, so I emailed Sound Devices. They told me that the display would be accurate if it was using the recorders own internal clock. If it was externally jammed it would be one frame ahead. Even TC Slates have settings for offset you can advance or delay the frames displayed to compensate for latency, so they need to be set-up for your system.

The reason it is not practical to use a recorder display on a shoot is you have to get really close with the camera and that isn't practical. A Smart slate (TC) has really large bright numerals easy to read by the camera especially in sunlight. Usually the sound recordists is not in front of the camera but behind it. But I do think if you want to check your Timecode process in a test environment, that shooting a recorder's display should help give you a visual on the camera. But you really can't see a recorders display under real life shooting conditions.

To me a recorder with a properly calibrated TC Slate is the minimum for timecode sync. The camera can record the slate and those numbers can be read visually in edit, and you can find your corresponding audio TC. The camera having the same TC in its files is a bonus. This is the way we did film for a long time. I never fed TC to a film camera - and it worked fine for all of the projects I worked on.

 

[Brian Ferguson]

I wanted to add that there is a difference with the LCD display of the SD recorders in that they don't react as quickly as a LED TC slate display, By that I mean that it is harder to determine the frames changing. It is easier to tell the frame numbers on an LED display than a LCD but it is doable.

 

[King Cheung]

I wanted to add that there is a difference with the LCD display of the SD recorders in that they don't react as quickly as a LED TC slate display, By that I mean that it is harder to determine the frames changing. It is easier to tell the frame numbers on an LED display than a LCD but it is doable.

Brain, you really did a great job for all of us by sending email to confirm the accuracy with SD. THANKS!!
So, 702T is LED display, isn't it?
Thank you.

 

[Brian Ferguson]

No the SD 702T is a LCD that is one of the reasons it is ok to shoot for testing but not for actual production. LCD refresh is slower, but it does not matter, because they were not designed for that purpose.

It seems there are a lot of users that don't have all of the pieces of gear to do timecode the way they want or need. I am trying to help with some creative choices to give you a way to test your gear. In doing so be aware I am helping you with something that many would consider sub-par procedures.

Let me say it very clearly.

If you DON'T have a large timecode LED display like a Smart Slate you can TEST your camera sync with the ACL 203 and a lens pointed at your recorder to get a visual of the timecode image on your footage. That way you can see what your TC is doing ON YOUR FOOTAGE. Do NOT judge by looking at displays or play back. Judge it where all of this was designed to be used in post production.

Look on Final Cut Pro (or equivalent) with the Proxies or the R3D and find a point in the footage like an even second of TC, something easy to find. Mark that point on the footage. Write the TC number down, load the WAV audio file into the viewer, find that TC number that relates to the one you wrote down. When you find that number in the TC reader of the edit app mark that point. Line that up in the timeline of the edit app and get those 2 marks in the same place, visual and audio. Check and see if the RED file TC, the audio file TC, and the visual of the recorder display or TC slate, are all the same.

Remember that in dual system recording, audio and video never start at the same time so you have to look a ways into the files to find a common sync point. This sounds simple but it has come up before.

You should also run a line to the camera to record audio on the RED. That way, in the timeline, if your recorder TC is off - you will hear it immediately. If your recorder audio does not match up with camera audio you will hear an echo right away. Audio off by 1 frame will sound wrong, an echo or reverb.

I hope that helps.

That was what I was trying to say in a previous post. If your budget is limited I would go for a smart slate before a Clockit/Lockit. Then I would buy the Clockit, then a Master Controller. In a perfect world you would have all of them.

But if you don't actually load the footage in an edit program and look at what is happening you don't know if you are in sync. Anyone who tells me they have sync problems and hasn't actually been in an edit suite and looked at what is going on is fooling themselves.

 

[King Cheung]

Thanks a lot, Brain. It is very clear now.
Truly appreciate your effort!!

 

[Brian Ferguson]

I am happy to be Brian and Brain