Am I the only one that finds it a bit ridiculous that...

[Michael Tiemann]

My question to those more knowledgeable than myself is: by using an XLR to 3.5mm adapter, will the sound quality be inferior to a standard XLR input?

In principal, no. The big thing that XLR gives you that 3.5mm mini does not is that the mechanical design of XLR causes all three connections to be made simultaneously, which means you have ground from the start, whereas the mini has the tip touching the ring and the ring touching the ground before finally settling to tip-tip ring-ring ground-ground. Also, the mechanical design of XLR is much less prone to crackles and pops as the plug sits in the jack because the three connections remain constant. When a plug is rotated in a jack, the springs making the connection can momentarily disconnect as the profiles of the contacts change dynamically. But in principal, once you make a connection, and you don't touch a damn thing, anything but a criminally negligent adapter should pass signals from XLR to TRS (or back) without measurable loss. If you do camera movements, you want to make sure that nothing can wiggle or rotate the wire between the tie-down and the jack.

 

[Mark Phelan]

But in principal, once you make a connection, and you don't touch a damn thing

Ah that made me laugh. The voice of experience, no doubt. I can relate to that sentiment!

 

[Domenic Barbero]

you could have been like me and spent 60k on an alexa mini package and have no audio or headphone jack.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I am always a little surprised to see that people will plunk down thousands of dollars - or, in this case, commit to doing so - without a very clear idea of what they are buying. If sound is very important, why wouldn't you do the research about sound capabilities ahead of time?

That said, if you find that the sound capabilities are a deal breaker for you, I think (?) you can cancel and get your deposit back. As others have pointed out, there appear to be several ways to get sound into a Raven, and there will most likely be more by the time it ships.

This camera is a tremendous bargain; but you can't get Porsche accessories when you buy a VW.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

For years I have wanted a Sound Devices MixPre-D board built inside my camera, nice and tidy, the way it should be. We can dream.

Roughly 3 years ago, when Sound Devices released the PIX240 - which writes ProRes from the camera's video outs and has those lovely low noise SD pre-amps with XLRs for audio in - I campaigned RED to work with Sound Devices to build a DSMC1 module that would provide PR1080 for editorial with hero audio. We may never know all of the challenges that the DSMC1 design posed for RED engineers, but based on the actual number of modules that were ever released, I'm thinking it required a lot of "overhead" to create a fully vetted module.

Now that we are on DSMC2, and RED has opened the door to 3rd party Expander makers, we just might see a greater universe of options. For example, I believe that Mark's OMOD program has addressed timecode by partnering with Ambient. I'd guess most of us could write up our personal feature lists pretty quickly, and if enough others share our desires, somebody will make it. Ambient for TC and SD pre-amps sounds like a good start to me...

Cheers - #19

 

[Jarred Land]

This is such a weird thread. So odd to see people like Steve and Gunleik not getting it at all.

Its a modular system... you add what you need. There are some people that want full size XLRs, some mini 3.5mm, some mini XLR. Ask 3 different shooters and you will get 3 different answers. There is an option for everyone, and on the Redvolt Expander you can even swap out those as the audio ports are modular.

The Jetpack was designed specifically for Drones and Gimbals. Drones you really can't record sound unless the blade motors are off which kinda defeats the point of a drone. on gimbals you really shouldn't be trying to balance a shotgun microphone ontop of the camera , you should be recording sound separate if its important, and there are scratch mics on the camera to by able to sync up after the fact.

And in terms of actual sound quality.. there is no actual difference between the 3 connectors. Anyone that tells you otherwise probably sniffs glue and probably is the same guy that tells you you can get better quality keystrokes using a gold plated usb cable. XLR connectors are way way more robust which does matter, and can use higher gauge wire that does have an improvement when you are running lengths over 50 feet.. which again.. is not something you would do on a gimbal or a drone, and if you are using a shotgun mic on your camera the cable length is so short it doesn't matter.

And for the ones comparing it to Epic that had the 3.5mm plugs built-in to keep things small as possible , both the Weapon and Raven with the Base IO module attached is still smaller than the Epic with nothing.

And for those that still can't find a solution from us.. 3rd parties like Offhollywood's Omod series is an audiophiles dream.. so again.. options options options.

 

[Domenic Barbero]

This is such a weird thread. So odd to see people like Steve and Gunleik not getting it at all.

Its a modular system... you add what you need. There are some people that want full size XLRs, some mini 3.5mm, some mini XLR. Ask 3 different shooters and you will get 3 different answers. There is an option for everyone, and on the Redvolt Expander you can even swap out those as the audio ports are modular.

The Jetpack was designed specifically for Drones and Gimbals. Drones you really can't record sound unless the blade motors are off which kinda defeats the point of a drone. on gimbals you really shouldn't be trying to balance a shotgun microphone ontop of the camera , you should be recording sound separate if its important, and there are scratch mics on the camera to by able to sync up after the fact.

And with that, we can end all the silly back and forth. That pretty much sums it up and why the weapon/raven is a pretty rad little setup.

And in terms of actual sound quality.. there is no actual difference between the 3 connectors. Anyone that tells you otherwise probably sniffs glue and probably is the same guy that tells you you can get better quality keystrokes using a gold plated usb cable. XLR connectors are way way more robust which does matter, and can use higher gauge wire that does have an improvement when you are running lengths over 50 feet.. which again.. is not something you would do on a gimbal or a drone, and if you are using a shotgun mic on your camera the cable length is so short it doesn't matter.

And for the ones comparing it to Epic that had the 3.5mm plugs built-in to keep things small as possible , both the Weapon and Raven with the Base IO module attached is still smaller than the Epic with nothing.

And for those that still can't find a solution from us.. 3rd parties like Offhollywood's Omod series is an audiophiles dream.. so again.. options options options.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

This is such a weird thread. (snip) Its a modular system... you add what you need. (snip)

+1

I would note that the Raven price point might be attracting less experienced folks who are used to camcorder style rigs where everything is on board. Perhaps it would behoove RED to offer "built" packages where the buyer discusses their needs with a Bomb Squad rep, makes selections, and then receives an already put together rig that just requires power and RedMags to start shooting. It might be a challenge for the packing/shipping staff, but if it makes choosing Raven easier... Yes, I'm fully aware that attaching an expander is dead easy, but I don't think it's in RED's best interest to get a rep for being overly complicated to deal with - either during purchasing or operation. Reality is one thing, perception is another.

Cheers - #19

 

[Steve Sherrick]

This is such a weird thread. So odd to see people like Steve and Gunleik not getting it at all.

Its a modular system... you add what you need. There are some people that want full size XLRs, some mini 3.5mm, some mini XLR. Ask 3 different shooters and you will get 3 different answers. There is an option for everyone, and on the Redvolt Expander you can even swap out those as the audio ports are modular.

The Jetpack was designed specifically for Drones and Gimbals. Drones you really can't record sound unless the blade motors are off which kinda defeats the point of a drone. on gimbals you really shouldn't be trying to balance a shotgun microphone ontop of the camera , you should be recording sound separate if its important, and there are scratch mics on the camera to by able to sync up after the fact.

And in terms of actual sound quality.. there is no actual difference between the 3 connectors. Anyone that tells you otherwise probably sniffs glue and probably is the same guy that tells you you can get better quality keystrokes using a gold plated usb cable. XLR connectors are way way more robust which does matter, and can use higher gauge wire that does have an improvement when you are running lengths over 50 feet.. which again.. is not something you would do on a gimbal or a drone, and if you are using a shotgun mic on your camera the cable length is so short it doesn't matter.

And for the ones comparing it to Epic that had the 3.5mm plugs built-in to keep things small as possible , both the Weapon and Raven with the Base IO module attached is still smaller than the Epic with nothing.

And for those that still can't find a solution from us.. 3rd parties like Offhollywood's Omod series is an audiophiles dream.. so again.. options options options.

With all due respect, I do get it. As I mentioned a few posts ago, I missed the discussion about a cheaper module in previous threads or Facebook posts. What I was speaking to is that Raven is appealing to a different price point, where people may purchase one for run and gun type of shooting. Adding an expensive module to get proper sound might not be ideal. For cameras like Epic, Dragon, and Weapon double system sound will tend to be used a lot more and the module system makes sense. And even in the Raven this makes sense if there are less expensive modules on the way. I simply missed the discussion about this. That makes a lot more sense.

Also, I spoke earlier in the thread about understanding why you guys might have decided to go this way. I'm just looking at things from all angles as I come across all kinds of shooters and hear various feedback about what's out there for options, why they choose one system over another, etc.

I think Raven will be a very versatile system. Another option in the Red arsenal. You guys have just about everything covered now, especially with 8K on the way. It's tough to be everything to everyone but you're expanding the lineup in a way that covers a lot of bases and that's an impressive feat.

 

[PatrickFaith]

I read this thread and said ... "i'm not going to comment ... i'm not going to comment ... i'm not going to comment", since I don't like threads that could be answered by simply looking at RED.COM or the response are about pushing some personal agenda rather then focusing on how to become a better film maker. If people don't like or get the DSMC concept for ~whatever~ reason, what are they doing on REDUSER aside from being placed on my ignore list?

 

[Steve Sherrick]

I read this thread and said ... "i'm not going to comment ... i'm not going to comment ... i'm not going to comment", since I don't like threads that could be answered by simply looking at RED.COM or the response are about pushing some personal agenda rather then focusing on how to become a better film maker. If people don't like or get the DSMC concept for ~whatever~ reason, what are they doing on REDUSER aside from being placed on my ignore list?

I don't think the original poster's question is completely out of line. Anyone new to RED, coming from other systems may be wondering the same thing. Jarred answered it.

By the way, things are not always answered simply by going to RED.com. They have other outlets for getting info out there and it doesn't always appear on RED's website right away. That's why I wasn't aware of the additional modules that are planned. Even for someone like me who has been around from the beginning, it's possible to miss things.

Hopefully I don't appear on your ignore list Patrick. You won't appear on mine, as I like what you bring to the table.

 

[Jeff McCoy]

Why not just get the Base Expander instead of the Jetpack? It adds $200 and includes audio. Plus you'll have SDI, which is nice. I've ordered that for my Weapon since I use a teradek transmitter that only has SDI input, the jetpack wouldn't work for me. I don't see much difference between the Base Expander and Jetpack in terms of cost, size, or weight. Plus you always have the on-board scratch mics on your Raven that the Epic never had. Win win. Right?

 

[Matthew Quinn]

Why not just get the Base Expander instead of the Jetpack? It adds $200 and includes audio. Plus you'll have SDI, which is nice. I've ordered that for my Weapon since I use a teradek transmitter that only has SDI input, the jetpack wouldn't work for me. I don't see much difference between the Base Expander and Jetpack in terms of cost, size, or weight. Plus you always have the on-board scratch mics on your Raven that the Epic never had. Win win. Right?

^^ THIS

 

[Jarred Land]

Why not just get the Base Expander instead of the Jetpack? It adds $200 and includes audio. Plus you'll have SDI, which is nice. I've ordered that for my Weapon since I use a teradek transmitter that only has SDI input, the jetpack wouldn't work for me. I don't see much difference between the Base Expander and Jetpack in terms of cost, size, or weight. Plus you always have the on-board scratch mics on your Raven that the Epic never had. Win win. Right?

Bingo.

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Bingo.

this is the KEY with RED PRODUCTS.. which I like..
its kinda how I wish the cable companies worked.. Pay for the networks/channels You want.. dont pay for the stuff you dont want..

Dont need sound? great buy the base camera and your set...
Need sound? Perfect, put on this need little module and your good to go

 

[Roger Alexander]

I guess the majority of people replying on my post missed my reply where I said I didn't know about the scratch mics built inside the camera. I have primarily worked with RED One, Scarlet, and Epic which all had some type of port for audio. The idea in general of an internal scratch mic was foreign to me because most cameras I've used either clearly has a visible microphone area on the body or a port to plug into. I looked at the specs of the Raven and pictures and did some searches and didn't see either of those. Had I known about the scratch mic thing, this post probably wouldn't have been made.

Regardless I appreciate everyone's feedback on this, clearly I wasn't the only person with these thoughts. This will help me make a better informed decision. It's pretty cool to see my first post on the forum get so much attention and get a reply from the Fire Chief! :emote_22_yikes: That tells me that RED pays attention and listens to its community!

 

[Steve Sherrick]

So, I guess Jarred is giving me reason to log into Facebook. Anyone that knows me well, knows that I check Facebook about once or twice a year, if that. Not a huge fan, but I guess I've been missing out on some fun stuff on Jarred's page and hence why I probably missed some things about Raven and what all of the options might entail.

I get the modular approach. Never have had a problem with that. If there's a low cost I/O expander, that's fine, especially if it doesn't add a lot of bulk to the camera. I'm not really in the market for a camera at this time, but if this had a Nikon mount I would probably not be able to resist purchasing it. It's a lot of bang for the buck.

And the more I think about it, there are already some clever solutions for dealing with 3.5mm connectors and such, so could easily make the audio part work for situations where double system wasn't possible or necessary.

 

[Matthew Quinn]

This forum is very very helpful

 

[Ashley Stracke]

I've used Epic as a standalone audio recorder, and also used it as a space heater in a small, cold hotel room.

It performed beautifully.

 

[Paramon Ivanovich]

I've used Epic as a standalone audio recorder, and also used it as a space heater in a small, cold hotel room.

It performed beautifully.

Must be a really small room )))