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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Am I missing something about ProRes?

i'm still not quite clear on the merits of 4444 XQ vs standard 4444? Other than a higher bit rate, what am I missing?
 
From my understanding it's higher bit rate for greater accuracy, but would I'm like you've would love a better understand of when to leverage it, as it is a really heavy codec and I would figure going raw would be a better decision.
 
M.Halsell said:
i'm still not quite clear on the merits of 4444 XQ vs standard 4444? Other than a higher bit rate, what am I missing?
Click to expand...
Nothing. It's a higher bitrate. No harm, no foul. I'm not convinced it makes a difference, but I have had clients who use it on some projects -- it's their decision.
 
Ryan Hamblin said:
I will use Red and Arri where they are relevant and they happen to be relevant here, especially when speaking about prores. They do both exhibit aliasing in certain situations as I have experienced on rare occasions when owning RED's. Just about all Digital cameras that I have ever came across will show these issues at some point or another.

The downscale methodology does not really play into my test and test and test statement, but from my understanding the sensor is a 16x9 sensor that debayers and takes the debayered image of the full 16:9 sensor and then scales down to UHD. Just as the weapon does to get its 4k 422... probably not the same algorithms but relatively the same process. Currently there is no what to get a 4.6k prores file straight out of the camera... nor do I see much use in it, as after Debayer there is not 4.6k worth of information as you said.

With my test and test and test statement it was putting all three cameras under the same conditions and in tungsten and daylight. Shooting Charts, skin tones, overs, under etc... Did many of the tests twice or even 3 times. All tests for sharpness were viewed at 200% and that is how I judged not seeing any aliasing. That is not to say it could not appear worse in some other situation, but I have yet to have it stand out at anything delivered in 4k. Our company masters just about ever project we do in 4k and have since we began shooting on RED around 2010 or so, for archival sake. I am however not confusing sharpness and resolution, I am quite aware of the difference. I will say I have never shot on a camera to date that resolves a true 4k, and the ursa mini is the closest I have seen do it. Thats not saying its the best horse for all courses either, all these cameras have their place. We are just finding it to be a work horse, 4 rolling stone jobs already in the can. A Mapco/Hype energy promo with a Big Machine Records artist, and a few in pre pro that will most likely go to this camera. Clients are loving it.

I am aware that some customers are having some magenta issues. The video you displayed though is a farce and even the customers who have seen this issue are not reporting it to appear as it does in that video. If I remember correctly someone posted that video as a joke. Thats not making excuses for the camera either, but we all know arri and RED have had their issues too. Im just lucky as well as the 2 other owners in Nashville that have had their cams on the Rolling Stone jobs do not have the magenta problems.

Again all these test I did... the results lead to my opinion. Your welcome to yours as well, I'm just trying to report my experience. Back to the real meaning of the thread though is that of ProRes, and I still stand by the fact that if you shoot right 422HQ can really get you some amazing results, when your not in the situation to shoot RAW. I can see why someone would go the 4444 route with ProRes, but in my opinion when your getting into those data rates I really think RAW is a better way to go no matte which camera you shoot on.
Click to expand...

Of coarse the video is a joke. No one thinks that that a true reflection of the UM 4.6 camera. But the gist is another thing altogether. Just a mere fact, that many users are steaming mad at BMD for suggesting that magenta contamination is a camera "look" should be enough to give a pause to many prospective UM camera buyers.
Getting back to your many interesting statements. You stated, that you shoot Red, and then you say "I have never shot on a camera to date that resolves a true 4k". What Red camera had you used, that doesn't resolve a true 4k?
"Just about all Digital cameras that I have ever came across will show these issues (aliasing) at some point or another"
That is true.
But what Red and Alexa cameras gave you the same type of aliasing issues, that, I'm sure, you'd encountered with UM?
"Just as the weapon does to get its 4k 422".
I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here, but a 4k 422 material from Weapon should be used for editing purposes only. In this particular case, for finishing one should use RAW. Anything less, than 444 shouldn't be used for color grading. Anyway, I'm wasting my time here. You clearly have no idea what the difference between resolution and sharpness is. You can have sharper HD images, than say 6k images and looking at them at 200% will tell you zero about the missing resolution. Shoot some zone plates and let us know how that goes with your "non existent" UM aliasing...
And seriously, you can't master 4k, when your sensor is only 4.6k. You just fooling yourself into thinking, that it's 4k. It's clearly not...
 
Maybe this is RED blasphemy, but in all my years working with 'em (and it's been a few - R1 SN#00015!) I've almost always stayed within a ProRes workflow and forgotten the RAW was there. I say almost, because yes, sometimes I find the extra flexibility to play in post is super useful and important, but it's a very very small percentage of my total time behind these cameras.
Just like most other cameras (Amira anyone?), paying close attention to getting correct exposure and writing to nice LOG color space will get you there. Internal ProRes down sampled to 2k* is my single most anticipated feature of the DSMC2 bodies. I CANNOT WAIT. :ihih:



*Don't get me started on the resolution argument. Even with 4k tv's starting to become a thing, I just don't deliver beyond 2k. Rarely beyond 1080. And I have close friends at Co3 and major VFX houses who will agree. I fully expect to be burnt at the stake for saying that. :crying:

**It's also worth mentioning I don't consider myself a pixel peeper and to date the favorite images I've ever produced were on a panavised F35, which is stuck in 1080 and doesn't even have a built in recorder.
 
M.Halsell said:
i'm still not quite clear on the merits of 4444 XQ vs standard 4444? Other than a higher bit rate, what am I missing?
Click to expand...

Simple, lower compression results in higher quality. It is a necessity when image get's pulled and pushed in all different directions. With lower compression you can do it with less damage. But, strictly looking at the two side by side, you'll see no difference.
 
jake blackstone said:
Of coarse the video is a joke. No one thinks that that a true reflection of the UM 4.6 camera. But the gist is another thing altogether. Just a mere fact, that many users are steaming mad at BMD for suggesting that magenta contamination is a camera "look" should be enough to give a pause to many prospective UM camera buyers.
Getting back to your many interesting statements. You stated, that you shoot Red, and then you say "I have never shot on a camera to date that resolves a true 4k". What Red camera had you used, that doesn't resolve a true 4k?
"Just about all Digital cameras that I have ever came across will show these issues (aliasing) at some point or another"
That is true.
But what Red and Alexa cameras gave you the same type of aliasing issues, that, I'm sure, you'd encountered with UM?
"Just as the weapon does to get its 4k 422".
I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here, but a 4k 422 material from Weapon should be used for editing purposes only. In this particular case, for finishing one should use RAW. Anything less, than 444 shouldn't be used for color grading. Anyway, I'm wasting my time here. You clearly have no idea what the difference between resolution and sharpness is. You can have sharper HD images, than say 6k images and looking at them at 200% will tell you zero about the missing resolution. Shoot some zone plates and let us know how that goes with your "non existent" UM aliasing...
And seriously, you can't master 4k, when your sensor is only 4.6k. You just fooling yourself into thinking, that it's 4k. It's clearly not...
Click to expand...

I gotta say man your quite a rude guy. Ill say my last piece on this subject. I have never heard anyone say that the magenta issue is a look, I do know the engineers have commented there is no fix for the current cameras that have the issue but are working on it. There is no doubt that sucks for those users.

As for RED cameras I have shot on every single version of RED other than a weapon. Our company has finished projects with every RED camera other than weapon. If I'm supposed to see 4k worth of Detail well I'm not. Do the cameras look good, yes, or else none of us would be shooting on them. RED is soft in my experience and I'm guessing that is mainly to an aggressive olpf.

Again I have not hit any aliasing as of yet with the UM4.6k but I'm expecting it will happen at some point. I've had it happen a decent amount with the scarlet x we owned ( was one of the first to get my hands on one ). I've had it happen on Alexa ( haven't seen it on the mini yet, which I find surprising as I've only used the upres UHD from it and would figure that would exacerbate the situation).

The intention of the 422 on the weapon may be only for editorial, but many people will need to hit the ground running and use it through finishing. 422 is a great codec if your shooting well. I spoke with Phil Holland a bit about it on here briefly when he posted the 6k weapon files with the matching 422hq. There was little... if any difference in detail between the two files, as well as I found nothing I couldn't do grade wise with the 422 that I could with the RAW. Again Phil is not in the business of being a bad shooter so as expected your dealing with a 422 file that is properly exposed etc... I know it would be less than desirable for pulling a key or some extensive compositing work, but hey with the weapon you got both and if you couldn't do raw for the whole pipeline you could at least go snag that clip for your composite/keying work. Or if on other cameras shoot raw or 444 for those situations.

You really should maybe at least do some research on some of the projects I may have delivered or the level of work our company does. I checked your reel and you do good work, but I can and do in fact deliver 4k and have done it from multiple different source formats. it may not resolve a full 4k down to every pixel, but i can say this the um4.6k is more detailed than any 6k i have shot with Dragon, and dragon has delivered quite a few 4k masters up until now. I don't see anyone complaining about those not being 4k.

To clearly state someone doesn't know something about a given subject without knowing much of their background is just a flat out rude thing to do man. People are having discussions here and rude behavior doesn't benefit anyone. RED cameras are great and have shot some of my biggest work (Willie Nelson, L'oreal, etc...). I can say they are probably 90 percent of the shots in my directors reel. I'm just trying to give my honest opinion from the experiences I've had with the cameras we are discussing that deliver Prores straight to your cards.

but please don't feel the need to "waste" any more of your time on me... I am in deed a lost soul that is camera agnostic.
 
Ryan Hamblin said:
I gotta say man your quite a rude guy. Ill say my last piece on this subject. I have never heard anyone say that the magenta issue is a look, I do know the engineers have commented there is no fix for the current cameras that have the issue but are working on it. There is no doubt that sucks for those users.

As for RED cameras I have shot on every single version of RED other than a weapon. Our company has finished projects with every RED camera other than weapon. If I'm supposed to see 4k worth of Detail well I'm not. Do the cameras look good, yes, or else none of us would be shooting on them. RED is soft in my experience and I'm guessing that is mainly to an aggressive olpf.

Again I have not hit any aliasing as of yet with the UM4.6k but I'm expecting it will happen at some point. I've had it happen a decent amount with the scarlet x we owned ( was one of the first to get my hands on one ). I've had it happen on Alexa ( haven't seen it on the mini yet, which I find surprising as I've only used the upres UHD from it and would figure that would exacerbate the situation).

The intention of the 422 on the weapon may be only for editorial, but many people will need to hit the ground running and use it through finishing. 422 is a great codec if your shooting well. I spoke with Phil Holland a bit about it on here briefly when he posted the 6k weapon files with the matching 422hq. There was little... if any difference in detail between the two files, as well as I found nothing I couldn't do grade wise with the 422 that I could with the RAW. Again Phil is not in the business of being a bad shooter so as expected your dealing with a 422 file that is properly exposed etc... I know it would be less than desirable for pulling a key or some extensive compositing work, but hey with the weapon you got both and if you couldn't do raw for the whole pipeline you could at least go snag that clip for your composite/keying work. Or if on other cameras shoot raw or 444 for those situations.

You really should maybe at least do some research on some of the projects I may have delivered or the level of work our company does. I checked your reel and you do good work, but I can and do in fact deliver 4k and have done it from multiple different source formats. it may not resolve a full 4k down to every pixel, but i can say this the um4.6k is more detailed than any 6k i have shot with Dragon, and dragon has delivered quite a few 4k masters up until now. I don't see anyone complaining about those not being 4k.

To clearly state someone doesn't know something about a given subject without knowing much of their background is just a flat out rude thing to do man. People are having discussions here and rude behavior doesn't benefit anyone. RED cameras are great and have shot some of my biggest work (Willie Nelson, L'oreal, etc...). I can say they are probably 90 percent of the shots in my directors reel. I'm just trying to give my honest opinion from the experiences I've had with the cameras we are discussing that deliver Prores straight to your cards.

but please don't feel the need to "waste" any more of your time on me... I am in deed a lost soul that is camera agnostic.
Click to expand...

Yep, I'm the ONLY one who says magenta is a "look":)
1600 posts on just one forum about the "magenta look"
https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?uid=16&f=2&t=47333&start=850
You're under impression, that somehow I champion one camera over another, well, think again. I have no problem calling out any camera maker, including Red on Reduser, when I see BS. Unlike a camera person, all I care about are good images, regardless of camera used. When camera maker hides behind the "look" comment (yes, go ahead and read some of the posts) I will note and comment on it. You think you are camera agnostic probably the same way you think you know the difference between sharpness and resolution or use of Prores 422 vs Prores 444 for grading...
 
Glad I never had to hire you as a colorist you would be a pill in a finishing session.
 
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