Alternative field recorder

[Thor Wixom]

So, Stuart and Irony, what's the posibility of the codex portable to work with Redcode RAW instead of (or additionaly to) cineform?

Some of us would love to see a partnership between Red and Codex.

Thanks,

Ironny,

I just want to put my $0.02 worth in...

I would love to see a way to record directly from the Red One to the Cineform codec with out having to transcode.

Simply hook the Red One up to an external recorder, pipe the feed out uncompressed, and let the external recorder transcode to Cineform. Drop your files into Adobe Premiere and start chopping.

It's either that or buy an Apple and cut Recode in FCP. I know that the Red Team and Apple have gone to great lengths to provide an FCP solution (so no offense to them), but as the price of such a device gets closer to the cost of a fully loaded Mac, I'd rather buy the external recorder and work in Premiere. Of course, we haven't reached that price point yet, but the price of such things will always come down. Ain't technology great?

-Thor Wixom

 

[albert rudnicki]

Thor
Have you checked the Wafian HR-1 from Cineform?
Cheers
A.

 

[Thor Wixom]

Thor
Have you checked the Wafian HR-1 from Cineform?
Cheers
A.

Albert,

I have. It would work in a lot of situations, but I'd always have to be tethered to it.

My background is in action sports (mountain bike, BMX, skateboard, etc.) where run and gun is the modus operandi, and I tend to shoot my narrative work that way, too.

I'm really hoping for a unit that I can mount to the handheld configuration of the Red One (maybe in place of the Red Drive) that will convert the uncompressed data to Cineform and record it to a hard drive.

That would be the best of both worlds.

Then I could just drop my clips into Premiere and start chopping.

The data rates and record times should be comparable to RedCode on the Red Drive. The question is how much space would be required to house the encoding hardware, in addition to the hard drive(s)? I don't think I would enjoy lugging an HR-1 or HR-2 around on my shoulder, or even from a shoulder strap. (Remember the old days when the VTR was seperate from the camera? Wow, I totally just dated myself there!)

I realize it is probably too early in the game for such a device to be reality, but hopefully within a year or two.

If Wafian has any kind of plans for this, I'll put money down on a reservation.

-Thor Wixom

 

[M Most]

Ironny,

Simply hook the Red One up to an external recorder, pipe the feed out uncompressed, and let the external recorder transcode to Cineform.

I don't think the word "simply" applies here.

Every camera that uses a Bayer sensor has its own RAW format. The only "uncompressed" output available from a Bayer camera like the Red would be RAW data. So, for an external recorder to record that data and apply its own compression, three things would have to happen: Red would have to supply the manufacturer with all of the details of its RAW format, the manufacturer would have to write its own debayering software (to be used either after or before the compression is applied), and it would have to do all of this at a very, very high data rate. The Wafian, while a good conceptual example of what you're asking for, only does standard Cineform compression, in other words, its input is video, not RAW data that has to be processed prior to creating an actual image. In the case of the Silicon Imaging camera, the RAW format was made available to Cineform by the manufacturer, since the camera was basically a joint effort. As far as we know, the details of Red's RAW format are proprietary at this point in time, that would have to change for a company like Cineform to be able to deal with the RAW data directly.

Then, of course, there's the business aspect of this: how many of these devices could anyone other than Red expect to sell? 10? 20? With Red already doing its own Redcode compression and development of all software to support that, where is the business opportunity even if Red was willing to release the proprietary information to a third party? While I think there's a great need and possible market for a Red manufactured (or licensed) device that can do "live" format conversions, I just don't see a lot of room (or need) for another compression option. If the demand is there for Adobe support, Red will likely pursue that. But you can't always get what you might want, and for the moment, Red's tie-ins with Apple and Assimilate are their most fluid post solutions. Those are the choices they've made.

 

[Thor Wixom]

I don't think the word "simply" applies here.

Every camera that uses a Bayer sensor has its own RAW format. The only "uncompressed" output available from a Bayer camera like the Red would be RAW data. So, for an external recorder to record that data and apply its own compression, three things would have to happen: Red would have to supply the manufacturer with all of the details of its RAW format, the manufacturer would have to write its own debayering software (to be used either after or before the compression is applied), and it would have to do all of this at a very, very high data rate. The Wafian, while a good conceptual example of what you're asking for, only does standard Cineform compression, in other words, its input is video, not RAW data that has to be processed prior to creating an actual image. In the case of the Silicon Imaging camera, the RAW format was made available to Cineform by the manufacturer, since the camera was basically a joint effort. As far as we know, the details of Red's RAW format are proprietary at this point in time, that would have to change for a company like Cineform to be able to deal with the RAW data directly.

Then, of course, there's the business aspect of this: how many of these devices could anyone other than Red expect to sell? 10? 20? With Red already doing its own Redcode compression and development of all software to support that, where is the business opportunity even if Red was willing to release the proprietary information to a third party? While I think there's a great need and possible market for a Red manufactured (or licensed) device that can do "live" format conversions, I just don't see a lot of room (or need) for another compression option. If the demand is there for Adobe support, Red will likely pursue that. But you can't always get what you might want, and for the moment, Red's tie-ins with Apple and Assimilate are their most fluid post solutions. Those are the choices they've made.

mmost,

Thank you for the explanation.

I can see that I still have a lot to learn about this camera and how it works.

Either way, Red has said that full support for Premiere and Windows will come eventually, and David Newman is committed to providing a Red workflow through CineForm. The bottom line is that the images will look amazing, and as time goes on there will be fewer and fewer compromises, especially when it comes to the tools we can use to edit and refine those images.

Thanks again for clarifying.

-Thor

 

[Paul Kalbach]

Hi Brian, I can confirm the price of a Codex Portable is $44,500. This includes one diskpack that gives you 3 hours of capture at 4:1, much higher quality than the 12:1 on REDCode (similar codec).

And apart from that, Codex is all about workflow. It also gives you live de-Bayering, live down-res to both HD and SD, direct DPXs, live wireless MP4 monitoring, QuickTimes, high-speed backup to other devices etc. etc, and of course you can use it (with exactly the same easy workflow) with any other HD, 2K or 4K camera you care to use. It will be available from the end of this year. Oh and it weighs 9lbs (4 kilos), so lugging is not really the word.

Regarding the Codex Recorder (which is a rental item and will capture RED in uncompressed), it is probably also worth noting that it isn't quite in the same class as several other recorders touted on this forum from time to time, as it's already been used on quite a few 'grown up' projects (as well as a couple of indies and even some 3D stuff) in the last 6 months and you can rent them from several top rental companies already.

Ironny-
Was Codex developed by the same people that developed Lightworks? Seems to me I heard that somewhere....

 

[Ironny]

Ironny,

I just want to put my $0.02 worth in...

I would love to see a way to record directly from the Red One to the Cineform codec with out having to transcode.

-Thor Wixom

Hi Thor

That is certainly the idea behind the Codex. We always capture RAW camera data (or in the case of an HD camera, HDSDI before codecs are applied) and store that. For the portable we apply similar compression (JPEG2000) to REDcode, only we only do it at 4:1 rather than 12:1. We do this to the RAW data and then export files to a Post format. That way the JPEG2000 is never 'seen' by Post.

The Recorder, on the other hand, does it all uncompressed.

The Portable weighs 4 kilos (9lbs) and is designed to be worn on the shoulder or attached to a Dolly, so it is quite possible that you could run and gun with it.

 

[Ironny]

Ironny-
Was Codex developed by the same people that developed Lightworks? Seems to me I heard that somewhere....

Yes that is the case, Codex was founded by Paul Bamborough and Delwyn Holroyd. Paul was the original creator of Lightworks and Delwyn was one of his senior developers. Delywn was also the Developer in charge of 5D Commander, the first 2K Digital Daily playback system.

It is with these Post credentials that Codex is approaching Digital Cinematography capture - it's all about the workflow...

 

[M Most]

Hi Thor

That is certainly the idea behind the Codex. We always capture RAW camera data (or in the case of an HD camera, HDSDI before codecs are applied) and store that. For the portable we apply similar compression (JPEG2000) to REDcode, only we only do it at 4:1 rather than 12:1. We do this to the RAW data and then export files to a Post format. That way the JPEG2000 is never 'seen' by Post.

Would you not have to have documentation from the camera manufacturer in order to interpret their RAW data? Note: I know you had cooperation from Dalsa......

 

[Shawn Nelson]

This is the direction I think Red is going to go with the RedPocket camera. They'll produce a small "pocket professional" camera that takes PL mount lenses with a 2k sensor but has no recording capability, it will only output raw HD-SDI. Then you'd buy the RedRecorder that can take in single or dual HD-SDI streams and record RedCode to CompactFlash. They'd be able to sell a double amount of the RedRecorder modules since a fair amount of people would want them as backup recorders for Red One.

 

[Steve Freebairn]

This is the direction I think Red is going to go with the RedPocket camera. They'll produce a small "pocket professional" camera that takes PL mount lenses with a 2k sensor but has no recording capability, it will only output raw HD-SDI. Then you'd buy the RedRecorder that can take in single or dual HD-SDI streams and record RedCode to CompactFlash. They'd be able to sell a double amount of the RedRecorder modules since a fair amount of people would want them as backup recorders for Red One.

No offense Shawn, but I really hope your wrong. I hope that the camera has onboard CF to record to.

 

[Curran Giddens]

The only alternative field recorder that I see worth buying is the RED-RAID. Too bad there has never been any information about it released. Looks like the Codex Recorder (not Portable) is for rental only (and would probably be too expensive to buy anyway).

I wanted to record 4.5k (plenty of extra room to remove camera shake or reframe in post) at up to 60fps. I could then convert to Redcode RGB with a high-quality debayer to save on storage space.

Now I am thinking about just skipping the RAW port until I hear some information about the RED-RAID. I was mostly going to use 2k at 120fps anyway (and even double that in post with frame interpolation). And now it looks like we should be able to get 100fps onboard. 100fps Redcode RAW should be good enough for now.

 

[oldphart]

No offense Shawn, but I really hope your wrong. I hope that the camera has onboard CF to record to.

CF will be outdated long before the Red pocket camera, so a dockable recording option which can be replaced would make most sense.

 

[Jon McCoy]

I am glad to see more and more people moving towards cf cards.
Is it save to say that RED was the first one?

Nope - just first to stuff 4k on them...

Thomson Infinity - CF & Rev Pro
Panasonic P2 (solid state, basically CF in PCMCIA form-facto)

On the audio side, I've been using a Fostex CF field recorder for years.

The only alternative field recorder that I see worth buying is the RED-RAID.

...

Now I am thinking about just skipping the RAW port until I hear some information about the RED-RAID. I was mostly going to use 2k at 120fps anyway (and even double that in post with frame interpolation). And now it looks like we should be able to get 100fps onboard. 100fps Redcode RAW should be good enough for now.

Also I'm sure I heard somewhere, that an IP (network) interface will be available, presumably mounting RAID storage with iSCSI, or FCIP. I'd love a network stream for instant playback solutions, and to send the footage directly to the edit suites.

 

[luis bustamante]

The only alternative field recorder that I see worth buying is the RED-RAID

Another option worth keeping an eye on is the Colorspace DDR (http://www.colorspaceinc.com/), looks promising...

The best,