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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Alpha Build 16...

AKABAKA said:
An alpha tester receives Build 16:

800px-PulpFictionCase.jpg
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Are all the alpha testers alpha males?
 
parisrem said:
I completely understand Cinemanos feelings. I too thought (and I'd be perfectly happy to accept that I misinterpreted something) that the original concept of the Red One was that when newer,better, higher resolution sensors and better boards, etc... became available, the camera would be upgradeable to the current peak specs. That's what the rendering obsolescence obsolete phrase was to many people. While some of that upgradability is still possible and has been announced, it seems (I stress seems since none of us know exactly what is going to happen with any of the upgrades or Epic yet because it's still future speculation, so... ) to have been stunted somewhat by the creation of a higher tier, higher priced camera. I don't think that anyone is saying that progress or development should be stopped or slowed to make people feel better about their investment. Or that the Red One isn't a great camera anymore because of this. It's just that some people thought, based on statements from Red, that the newest and best would be incorporated ( at Red One price points) into the Red One
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RED always said their would be an upgrade path, and there is, you get full trade in value for your RED ONE. And i would consider $40,000 in line with their pricing considering (speculation here) that the epic could possibly be the best cinema camera in the world, bar none. Compared to $200,000+ camera systems out there, I'd personally call that a steal, not to mention the workflow benefits.

hmmm, you're right. this is a build 16 thread. Sry to throw everyone off course. I just get confused about ppl's reaction to EPIC. I don't want one personally (I can barely afford my RED ONE kit) and I have no doubt RED will continue to push the RED ONE as far as it's hardware will allow (probably a bit farther actually).
 
Well the Dalsa does record to 16bits linearly, so it has more dynamic range than the RED.

But I'd much rather hear about alpha testers' experiences with build 16 on this thread and talk about camera differences or RED's upgrade philosophy on other ones.
 
The main difference is that the Dalsa has a 14-bit A/D and generates uncompressed RAW files (recorded to 16-bit), versus the RED's 12-bit A/D and compressed RAW files. But I would add that Dalsa's approach, with the high data numbers involved, has been one reason that it has not been very practical for the average filmmaker.
 
Thanks for correcting me David. I had just looked up the specs on Wikipedia, and turns out it wasn't describing the whole picture.
 
The dalsa may record 16bits, but two of them are blank. And who's ever seen a raw test chart or can afford to shoot one to see how many of the other bits are noise...

Graeme
 
stevesherrick said:
That's not what I understood at all from the beginning. The RED team ad mentioned that the RED ONE would have an upgrade path via chip upgrade. They never stated that it would incorporate all of the features of a new camera. RED ONE owners will have a couple of options.

1. Upgrade RED ONE with new Mysterium X chip that will provide some of the upgraded features of the Epic, including increased dynamic range. It will still be a 4K camera. This upgrade will not be super cheap, but as of yet there is no price set. Jim has indicated that current camera owners will have first dibs on these new chips when they are available.

2. Turn in your RED ONE for full value ($17,500) towards a new Epic. Cost of new Epic now becomes $22,000ish. So if you need 5K and some of the additional features that won't be available by just upgrading your RED ONE you make a decision on how much those features are worth to you.

So RED ONE is not obsolete. It is getting better with build 16 and it will get even better with the Mysterium X chip upgrade. As far as I'm concerned they are keeping their promise of making it upgradeable.
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Red are offering us all a great deal and a great deal, but I also thought that the Red1 box might be `totally` upgradable, not just the sensor, as new electronics tend to get smaller not larger, and I wouldn`t blame anybody for getting the same impression.
Why old boards and processors can`t be upgraded by new ones I can`t imagine, it seemed perfectly feasable and sensible, and in a stroke made an electonic high tech piece of kit an investment! When I`ve bought equipment in the past I always weighed up every single feature, is it progressive?, is it 3chip?, has it got interchangeable lens?, manual focus?, optical stabilization?, what recording format? what resolution? what fps? etc depending on what my percieved expectation is. Now that I`m borrowing $30000 I don`t feel any less inclined to question my consumer choices, probably more in fact.
4k@60fps was a huge draw to me, the NAB2008 pdf still states 4k at up to 60fps, which it won`t do, but fails to mention its max 2k fps of 120fps. I can live without it, but knowing it will never be upgradable is disappointing.
Maybe with the new sensor we might get 4k@48fps or 4.5k@24fps through software optimizations and the mysterium x sensor, in the same way that games for the playstation got better in later years as programmers gained experience coding it. I`d be curious about what other resolutions we could get too, like 4.5k with bizarre aspect ratios like 4:1 or 720p@300fps or 3.5k @ 48fps etc etc, even if QT can`t handle them, the Tiffs would be great. We`ll just have to be patient I guess.
On the flip side, if we`d all been told it was a 3k camera from the start, that did 60fps, and 4k had been a bonus when the camera started shipping, no one would feel bad probably (except all the lenses would be out etc). I don`t, but I am a little nervous, and if I wasn`t I wouldn`t be sane, even though some people have said I`m not :nerd:
 
ronx said:
Red are offering us all a great deal and a great deal, but I also thought that the Red1 box might be `totally` upgradable, not just the sensor, as new electronics tend to get smaller not larger, and I wouldn`t blame anybody for getting the same impression.
Why old boards and processors can`t be upgraded by new ones I can`t imagine, it seemed perfectly feasable and sensible, and in a stroke made an electonic high tech piece of kit an investment! When I`ve bought equipment in the past I always weighed up every single feature, is it progressive?, is it 3chip?, has it got interchangeable lens?, manual focus?, optical stabilization?, what recording format? what resolution? what fps? etc depending on what my percieved expectation is. Now that I`m borrowing $30000 I don`t feel any less inclined to question my consumer choices, probably more in fact.
4k@60fps was a huge draw to me, the NAB2008 pdf still states 4k at up to 60fps, which it won`t do, but fails to mention its max 2k fps of 120fps. I can live without it, but knowing it will never be upgradable is disappointing.
Maybe with the new sensor we might get 4k@48fps or 4.5k@24fps through software optimizations and the mysterium x sensor, in the same way that games for the playstation got better in later years as programmers gained experience coding it. I`d be curious about what other resolutions we could get too, like 4.5k with bizarre aspect ratios like 4:1 or 720p@300fps or 3.5k @ 48fps etc etc, even if QT can`t handle them, the Tiffs would be great. We`ll just have to be patient I guess.
On the flip side, if we`d all been told it was a 3k camera from the start, that did 60fps, and 4k had been a bonus when the camera started shipping, no one would feel bad probably (except all the lenses would be out etc). I don`t, but I am a little nervous, and if I wasn`t I wouldn`t be sane, even though some people have said I`m not :nerd:
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I don't know that much more than anyone else in terms of what that upgrade will be. I'm going based on what I've been able to gather so far. It isn't out of the realm of possibility that they add some kind of additional board to go along with the new chip. But until we know for sure, I'm just going based on the information we have which is that an upgrade will happen via a new chip.
 
RED upgrade vs. epic

RED upgrade vs. epic

I think the RED upgrade vs. epic discussion is one of those cases where the realities of electronics makes it simpler to just move the whole package to a new form factor and charge a sufficient upgrade price to cover it, than it is to offer an upgrade by jamming new technology into an old package that was designed to hold the circuits as they were at the time of the first design. It just kind of feels bad to the purchaser of the older product- here's why you shouldn't feel bad:

My company has offered 50% trade ins on old housing to go to newer ones because it is actually more expensive to try to refit the old one to a new camera. The trade in is really a current customer discount justifiable because they are a current customer and getting the old housing out of circulation so you no longer have to support it. Manufacturing margins are usually such that this is feasible particularly when you realize that the trade in program serves to immediately get the sales volume of the new camera (in the case of RED) up to a number that supports more attractive volume component pricing and efficient manufacturing. In other words if they just come out with the EPIC at the 40K price with no trade in they would probably only sell a few in the first months. By the trade in program they would probably see a trade in order rate of 20 percent or more of the RED owners thereby immediately selling several hundred.

Another way to look at it is this: (BTW this is not anything that RED has said - this is a purely hypothetical example to illustrate the point)

Say RED did nott announce EPIC at NAB but instead had offered several upgrades (again this is hypothetical for illustration):

1) MysteriumX4K upgrade with improved noise, sensitivity, and dynamic range and a bump to 48fps for say $7500. Not bad and probably about what a lot of us expected in terms of upgrades.

2) MysteriumX4K and FPGA upgrade with improved noise, sensitivity,dynamic range and a bump beyond the original target of 60fps to maybe 75 fps, as well as support for additional outputs 1080P, etc. dual slot CF, and other features that need the new FPGA for say $13K. Again a pretty good jump at reasonable price.

3) MysteriumX 5K and FPGA plus all other circuit boards upgraded with improved noise, dynamic range as well as support for additional outputs 1080P, etc. dual slot CF, and other features that need the new FPGA plus:

1-100 FPS
UP TO 100 MB/SEC. REDCODE RAW AND RGB RECORDING TO REDFLASH
FULL SIZE DUAL LINK HD-SDI, 2-XLR AUDIO INPUTS AND HDMI
WI-FI CONTROL
FIREWIRE 800 and USB2
6 POUND FULLY MACHINED ALUMINUM BODY WITH HYBRID STAINLESS PL MOUNT
COMPATIBLE WITH MOST RED ONE ACCESSORIES

with an upgrade price of $25K.

Do you get my point? - the version 3 upgrade is just an EPIC except a little more expensive, yet if this was what was laid out you probably wouldn't have any of this buyer's remorse and griping.

But basically RED is saying "this is silly (thinking only in terms of upgrades) we really don't know what it will cost or what we can achieve marrying new components with old - but we do know what we can do starting from scratch - that's EPIC. And we know that we can do it within the confines of taking back an original RED and replacing it with an all new box, and crediting original owners with the full price paid toward 40K - because our immediate volume will be sufficient. We don't know what we will do with the older cameras - sell them as used, put them in parts replacement inventory, etc. or simply crush them. We know we can offer some upgrade to those that keep their RED but we don't know exactly what, how much, etc. so we will have to take that as it comes. Hence, the announcement of EPIC and the full credit REDONE trade in."

If you sit back and think about it from both the manufacturer's perspective of what reasonably can be done, and the customer perspective, I think you will see that in fact the RED camera strategy with Scarlet, REDONE, and Epic is brilliant - a boon to both RED in terms of ongoing development and to us the customers who have excellent choices regardless of situation. That is: 1) stay with REDONE - pretty damn good in its own right; 2) moderate upgrade via sensor swap; 3) upgrade to EPIC for 22K, 4) or even sell - and your resale value just got a solid floor because of the tradein deal, and downgrade to a SCARLET if that makes more sense for you.

I don't know which way I will go except to say I won't be selling my RED (may upgrade or trade to epic depending on upgrade costs and/or financial situation) and I will definitely order a scarlet as a second camera.
 
Any word on how the Alpha testers are coming along?
 
1st Alpha testing has already resulted in rework to the build. That's what it's for.

Jim
 
Sudhir Chaudhary said:
"LOOK" import from "IRIDAS SPEEDGRADE ONSET "....Is it going to be an option in Build 16 ?
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that would be awesome - speedgrade on set is such a lovely tool with a killer price/performance ratio, but you shouldnt expect the look import in 16 to be a iridas 3D-lut colorcorrection .look file.
 
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