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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Alexa vs. EPIC...

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Jannard

Jannard

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There is a lot of controversy about the Alexa vs. EPIC. Rightly so.

(This post was done in response to misinformation that seems to be spreading... I'd probably do a more elegant take if I could wind back the clock)

Here is the official RED take on the subject.

The Alexa makes great images. No question about it.
The EPIC makes great images. No question about it.

The Alexa is a small camera.
The EPIC is a smaller camera... about 1/3 the size of an Alexa.

EPIC has 6 times the resolution of Alexa. (as normally shot). EPIC has 5 times more measured resolution comparing best case for each cameras.

Alexa has a stop more native dynamic range than EPIC. Good on them.
EPIC has 3 stops more DR than Alexa using HDRx. Good on us.

EPIC is mostly ownable.
Alexa is mostly rentable.
(probably not a necessary point to post)

EPIC is modular. You can upgrade parts and pieces of EPIC. Even the just announced RED Dragon sensor is an upgrade.
Alexa is modular (Alexa-M). You can split apart the sensor and tether to the electronics. A different type of modular... and this is a different model Alexa than everyone owns so far.

Arri is a 70 year old company. RED is a 5 year old company. RED is scary. Arri apparently is not.

Alexa shoots 1080P Prores to a flash card or 2K uncompressed RAW to a Codex box.
EPIC shoots 5K to an SSD.

Alexa shoots 1080P at 60fps.
EPIC shoots 5K @ 120fps.

EPIC can shoot high res stills at 5K.

It should be noted that Sony has announced a new 4K camera... the F65. While I'm not sure how 8K x 2K outputs to 4K, this is a serious introduction to the industry and should be considered as an real alternative. We especially like that Sony has acknowledged the importance of 4K. Coupled with Sony's 4K projectors... it appears that 4K is here as the new standard. Rightfully so. Film would be proud.

Jim
 
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Jim you are on fire tonight. Love it. One thing I was surprised by at NAB was that Alexa seemed smaller than I thought. The thing, however, is that with the raw module it starts to get pretty beefy.

Also, I wasn't clear about whether their portable "M" prototype needed to be connected via wire to the main Alexa body -- that's what the rep seemed to be suggesting to me, unless I'm wrong.

Definitely NOT attractive if that's the case.

I was impressed with the footage I saw from the Sony F65 camera -- however, I think that's also partly that I'm not used to seeing quality 4k projection and it was apparently (according to someone at Bandpro) shot on the Leicas. So those two things helped it's "look" I'm sure.

Anthony
 
Jannard said:
Alexa has a stop more native dynamic range than EPIC. Good on them.
EPIC has 3 stops more DR than Alexa using HDRx. Good on us.

Jim
Click to expand...

I assume Dragon will change this equation. I know lips are sealed, but could you drop a hint? Is Dragon more about DR or resolution?
 
Jim I think the sheer volume of huge budget features being shot on a camera that has long been accused of being "vaporware" is already starting to win over the anti-REDheads. It's the ultimate in credibility, that these world-class pros and execs are all super willing to collectively bet BILLIONS of dollars on this supposedly "risky" technology.

And given that you've only shared some of the features that are or will be using the Epic, I think this is a snowball that's going to get huge pretty darn quick. No worries there.

However, IMHO the other big things are (as I'm sure you know) .... 1) people seeing the images from those films (which is a little ways off) ... and 2) cameras shipping to pretty much anyone who can afford them.

There will be no more excuses or reasonable criticisms left at that point.

Anthony
 
Not to sound like Richard!! (you can replace the Richard with a Four letter word) Comparing Epic with the Alexa is like trying to figure out whose gonna get the best SATs score between a high school nerd and a bully!! i personally would not use epic and alexa in the same sentense
its kind of insulting! thats just my personal opinion! as Ted said those cameras are GOOD for web videos and TV shows, Epic is a film Camera! Alexa does a great job in its class, i repeat my self in its class! but dont try to take a knife to a gun fight! cuz chances are you wont last long!! plz people dont take to offense anything that i say! its just my opinion!
 
why do y compare epic with alexa... compare it with a scarlet =)
 
noah newtown said:
why do y compare epic with alexa... compare it with a scarlet =)
Click to expand...

That is an interesting thought and not too far fetched. Actually, Scarlet has more measured resolution than an Alexa. :-)

Jim
 
Martin Weiss said:
As I've said before — for most of us owner/operators, this is the single most important thing. If it hadn't been for RED, we'd be shooting HDcam while dreaming about an Alexa.
Click to expand...

This, weight and post flexibility (in prores vs redCode & 1080 vs 4/5k) are the strongest points for the Reds. High-speed comes a bit down, even though it is a good customer selling point.

HDRx is the wildcard very few know how works when you want it yet.

The workflows are more compareable than many like to think...
 
I do not mind comparing RED MX with Alexa.

But Epic is in its own league. There is no other qualifier there yet.
 
James Brundige said:
I assume Dragon will change this equation. I know lips are sealed, but could you drop a hint? Is Dragon more about DR or resolution?
Click to expand...

Just speculating here, but I guess larger sensor -> more of the same Red pixels or new slightly larger pixels -> more resolution, more base latitude, good for 99% of things. And for that remaining 1%, you get HDRx.

(would love an optical viewfinder, though, and I know this is off-topic and something that has been talked about in the past....arri and aaton will have it, red and sony don't. Always great to have many different choices)
 
In the sense that:

RED post is often considered "hard" while Alexa is considered "simple" - not really kidding.

Both can be very straight foreward to work with, and both often go through an offline in Rec/online in Cineon with some kind of transcode step in between. The beef in the RAW files is just much more fun, once you've done ythe exposure and lightening thingy you mentioned.

People often forget that working directly with the redcolor/redgamma image from set (which is NOT a good way to keep DR, but have some other advantages for simple workflows...) is very compareable to working with the Alexa at rec 709 (where the DR of the R1 MX and Alexa is actually very similar...)

the good thing for RED is the additional flexibility if you want it and know how to take advantage of it.
 
shashbugu said:
Roger Deakins the new champion for Alexa claims 2K originated Alexa, when projected at 4k looks perfect to his eye.

http://www.deakinsonline.com/forum2/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1650
Click to expand...

Well, it is hard to comment that in a respectfull way, even though I respect him Highly... But the softness in the Alexa do have some of the same upsides as the resolution of the Red.

One of my recent worst cinematic experiences was true grit projected as a 2k DCP to a screen that was too big. But of course, that is shot on film... And the issue is the oposite...

Mind you, that was NOT because it was badly shot or lit, but because the size of the screen made it look like sitting in front of a giant pixelating TV...

Probably an upscale to 4k with a mild blur involved would look way better...
 
Jim, I find messages like this regrettable.

The Epic is a terrific camera, as will be the F65 and is the Alexa and next year I look forward, finally, to Penelope.

But please, don't play games, using debayered numbers for one camera and undebayered for another, you're way ahead in any form of measurement so why play games?

Alexa can most certainly be owned, I know a number of DP's who own their own, this has always been part of ARRI's approach, I used to own a 435.

I don't understand when you're so far ahead and responsible for so much positive change in our industry why you feel the need to do this.
 
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